Jamilah Kolocotronis
June 30, 2008 by greekmuslim
Jamilah Kolocotronis – A Greek Convert to Islam
In 1913 my grandfather left his home in the small village of Zatouna and traveled to Patras to earn some money. He was seventeen. He worked in a shop and at night, he told me, he slept behind the counter. Two years later, when he had earned enough, he boarded a boat for New York City, traveling steerage. When he left, his mother gave him two pieces of underwear and instructed him to wear the first on the voyage. When he reached America he could throw that in the ocean and put on the clean pair.
After his arrival Grandpa was processed at Ellis Island and placed on board a train bound for St. Louis. He couldn’t speak a word of English but there was a color-coded system to let the conductor know when each passenger should get off. In St. Louis he joined three older brothers. They slept in a large room with other Greek immigrants and worked wherever they could. A few years later he sent for my grandmother, whom he had never before met.
Eventually, my grandfather opened a Greek restaurant with his brothers and helped build the first Greek Orthodox congregation in St. Louis. He did what he could to raise his family of six, but practical life didn’t really suit Grandpa. He was a scholar at heart. If he’d been born to a rich family I have no doubt he would have been a priest, but his family was very poor and he did what he could to survive.
Years later, I benefited from my grandfather’s wisdom. He talked of history and politics and religion, all in his thick Greek accent, and I hung on every word. One day he gave me a postcard of the statue of Theodoros Kolokotronis, my ancestor*, and told me how he had defeated the Turks. Through my grandfather I learned of a heritage that extended far beyond my suburban St. Louis neighborhood.
When I went away to college I began learning about Islam. But I also carried with me the distrust of Muslim Turks, the people my ancestor had fought in the name of Greek independence. It took me four years to convert. One reason, I think, is that I couldn’t take that step and face telling my grandfather. He died in 1979. I became a Muslim in 1980.
My father, the son of Greek immigrants, basically renounced his Greek heritage. But I learned much of it from my grandfather and my aunts. I grew up Lutheran but we went to the Greek Orthodox Church for weddings, baptisms, and festivals. As a college student I spent two years learning Koine Greek, the language of the New Testament, and I can still read it. I never learned to speak Greek but I can make some awesome kourabiethes.and even baklava. And one day I hope to visit Greece and find the little village of Zatouna.
Author
Jamilah Kolocotronis is an author and an American Muslim from Greek ancestry. She has a doctorate in Social Science Education and has taught in Islamic schools for many years. She writes Islamic fiction for young adults/adults about American Muslims striving to live Islamic lives within the challenges of American society. She especially likes to write about converts who struggle to integrate their non-Islamic pasts with their new lives as Muslims. She has six sons, ages twenty-two to nine and lives in Lexington, Kentucky.
Published Books
Fiction – Innocent People, about a Muslim family in the year after September 11, 2001.
Fiction – Echoes Series (5 books), about an American Muslim convert’s struggle to pick up the pieces of his life
Nonfiction – Islamic Jihad, about the principles and practices of military jihad.
http://jamilahkolocotronis.writerswebpages.com
I think you did a wonderfulthing converting to Islam and I love your Book Innosent People? Everything in that book is amazing!!!!!
You know what’s even better than that book? Her next Echoes series, especially the books Echoes and Rebounding. Check them out.
My family has come in Greece at 1760s (before its independence) from the pontus mountains, because of forced islamization of the Christians that was taking place there. It was the only way to keep their independence their faith and their identity. My family was a family of metal workers and in fact of musket technicians. At 1800, they worked constructing guns and other metal constructions for Ali Pasha of Ioannina, until the time he was co-operating with the Greeks. When things turned ugly, they left Ali Pasha in fear of their lives and because he had stopped paying them. Then, when a huge slaughter of Christian population took place on a Greek island at the time of the Greek revolution, my family moved at that island since there was a total depletion of the Christian population and there was a threat to be totally islamified (as they have many). Since then my family (my ancestors) has taken part in all historical events that have happened in my country. They took part at the Balkan wars, they took part in the Asia minor endeavor, they took part at the Africa battle against the nazi Germans, they took part at the war in Albania against the Italians. Do you ever think that a Greek who knows his family history (who has such a history), who knows what his grand fathers have done, just wakes up one day and spits on the face of all his ancestors? Do you thing that what all his ancestors have fought and resisted with the arms and their lives in the first place (i.e. not to be islamified ) would just accept it because of a search of a different life? Because of theological doughts? Out of boredom? How fool you are…. How fool you are… That woman has not even the slightest relation with Kolokotronis. Kolokotronis was the Commander in Chief of the Greek revolution. wake up!
QUOTE:[ Do you ever think that a Greek who knows his family history (who has such a history), who knows what his grand fathers have done, just wakes up one day and spits on the face of all his ancestors?]
Nobody spat at anybody’s face as far as I know. There were war conditions. Attrocities happen at wars. We respect and honour the sacrifices of our ancestors. We just chose to believe in The One God with No Partners without the prejudice of the Past History.
Regards
Xenia
Ionnas, brother, how could it ever be that a human, any human, like Kolokotronis, has higher status than God? Should we abandon our creator only for the sake of not “disrespecting” the creation (Kolokotronis)? He (Kolokotronis) might have been commander and chief of the Greek revolution, or he could have turned out to become a fisher, or whatever, but, he in no way is important enough to leave God, for him, and all of the Greek heroes are not enough, and all of the world’s greatest heroes are not enough, and the whole Universe is not enough, God created that all. God is more important than all of that. So, will you tell Jamila Kolokotronis that she was wrong in choosing to put God as the priority in her life instead of her ancestor?
I only doubt the fact that Jamila Kolokotronis has any relation with the Kolokotronis of the Greek revolution. I do not doubt the fact that Jamila Kolokotronis has converted.
Ionnas,
One thing that you have to understand,
is that Jamilah Kolokotronis, before she was muslim, she was an AMERICAN, take it from me, because i am an american also.
When you are born in America, before your race, your religion, your color, comes the fact that you are an American.
If she was born in Greece, things would be entirely different, but she wasn’t.
She grew up in the United States with an american consciousness, and the knowlesge of her greek ancestry, but you can not call her greek.
People in greece, like to claim a lot of people as their own, because of their last name, but, where those people belong to, is only up to them to decide, but mostly people are proud of their birth country.
If you see it this way, she didn’t betray her religion, but rather her grandparent betrayed greece for emigrating…….
^^ so yasmine if your statement is true, would you declare that by being an American; your race, your religion and your color comes second to your national consciousness?
Also as you stated not everyone in the diaspora born of Greek ancestry call themselves Greeks, but isn’t the opposite also true, that neither do they necessarily stop identifying themselves by their Greek ethnicity and religion. Funny how you downplay nationalism and take jabes at the Greek diaspora for supporting Hellenic culture and the Orthodox faith but have no problem supporting the use of a historic family name of national significance as political religious propoganda.
Amir Abdullah asks Ionnas, brother, how could it ever be that a human, any human, like Kolokotronis, has higher status than God? You are correct no one has a higher status than God, but you have to keep in mind that the majority of the Greeks believe it was God’s Will that we be liberated from our oppressors who did not recognize the true faith.
SonOfSparta, what I’m trying to say is that religious belief has nothing to do with ancestry. Why? Because pleasing God by coming closer to Him is much more important than pleasing your ancestors. So, we don’t choose a different religion TO BE disrespectful towards our ancestors, but because we feel that this way we are closer to God. That’s all.
SOS,
I knew that my comments would be misunderstood.
What i was trying to say is this:
She is third generation greek. At what point do you stop being greek and become american?
First and second generation is comprehensible that they would be patriotic (to a degree).
But when you are third generation, you have never been to greece, don’t speak the language, you want her to understand greek history and love Colokotroni?
That was the point i was trying to make.
In Greece Kolokotronis is a cult figure. i will never forget the huge painting of him in the middle of my school in Greece. But growing up in the US, she COULD NEVER really understand the meaning of her name and what it means for greece………
That is what i was trying to tell Ionnas when he said that how could she turn back on her ancestors………Ioannas cannot understand that people growing up in the US have different heroes……
And to answer your question if by being an American, your race, religion and color comes second…..
Absolutely, this is a fact in this country for every American, whether christian, jewish, buddist, hindu, and the majority of muslims. This is what unites us and what made America what it is….
There are some muslims of course, for which Islam comes first and then everything else…….
Don’t ask me personally, because i go between being, greek, american, muslim, european every day of the week
In studying history, from the perspective of a Muslim, I am not proud of the actions of the Ottoman Empire. On the whole, I support the liberation of Greece through Theodoros Kolokotrones, though I don’t like that he killed some non-combatants. War is ugly, and the politics of war go far beyond religious beliefs. This was not Christianity vs. Islam. It was the struggle of the Greek people to free themselves from the oppression of the Ottoman Empire. There is a difference.
I had been studying Islam for a few years, but I couldn’t bring myself to convert until after my grandfather had died because I knew how he would feel about it. Yet, as has been stated, my understanding of God as One overcame any reluctance I had due to my ancestral heritage.
I am an American. If I had been up to me, I would have totally immersed myself from childhood in the Greek culture, but my father, the son of immigrants, wanted to be an American. In college I spent several years studying classical Greek. One day I will speak the language. One day, I will come back to Greece.
Asalamu Alaykum Sis Jamilah Masha Allah! Such a beutiful saying: QUOTE[One day I will speak the language. One day, I will come back to Greece.] We all feel the same about parts of our history but our love for The One God overcame the obstacles. Thank you for sharing your story with us.
Xenia
Asalaamu Aleikum Jamilah,
Thank you so much for answering all these questions for us!!!!
Sis Jamilah, nice to see you. Kalosorises, welcome. I want to travel to Greece too one day, so you never know, maybe I will see you there.
Mrs Jamilah Kolokotroni you are very welcomed to come to Greece.
I would be very much honored to meet you.
You touched my heart by what you said.
1. One day I will speak the language. One day, I will come back to Greece.
2. In studying history, from the perspective of a Muslim, I am not proud of the actions of the Ottoman Empire.
3. On the whole, I support the liberation of Greece through Theodoros Kolokotrones, though I don’t like that he killed some non-combatants.
4. War is ugly, and the politics of war go far beyond religious beliefs.
5. This was not Christianity vs. Islam.
6. It was the struggle of the Greek people to free themselves from the oppression of the Ottoman Empire. There is a difference.
=> I only hope, these sayings – these words, always to be remembered by Greek Muslims and non.
Thank you, for sharing with us your wise thoughts, Mrs Jamilah. You really soothe our hearts and minds.
Guys, I went for studies from Greece to England for 5 years and I know how difficult it is to preserve your traditions, way of life, culture, sense of the state of your homeland. But that is exactly why many of you have converted in Islam. You do not live an alive tradition. You have never followed the celebrations in a village (many of them dating back before Christianity). You do not live within a Greek community. You do not altogether face the same worries, problems and joys (Greek taxes :p). Your distant homeland is just a folkloric memory passed down from your parents or grand parents, and in many occasions, remain in your memory in the state that your ancestors left it.
Personally I left England to go back to Greece knowing that I would be unemployed for couple of years, that I had to go to the Army and lose a whole year of my life, that the life there would be a bit more boring (at least for some time) than it was in England, but after a three years of struggle, finally I’m making my way on. I just could not accept the fact that I had suffering (I was a poor student) studying all these years just to get a job in England and contribute to the gross domestic product of Britain and making oaths to the Queen.
The major factor that made me come back it was that if I would make a life in England I would lose my identity. My children would speak English, they would not understand the state of my country, they would not understand the life in Greece. Obviously they would not understand the traditions, the language, the culture of Greece, the problems of Greece (in any case they would have their own in england). I just know that it is not easy to be Greek. It is not easy to be Greek abroad and it is not easy to be Greek in Greece.
I might am obsessed with my country (and my island) and of being Greek, but someone has to be that as well. I probably have my reasons, since I know very well that the conflict with Turkey has not yet been resolved – the reasons that fueling it, still exist. It has just become a sort of cold war. I know very well that Turkey has the biggest landing army in the Mediterranean just across my island. We may live now in a relative peace, but nobody can really guarantee me that in a bad turn of history, things would not deteriorate. You living in America, may admit your sympathy for our worries but in any case you will never feel that sense of insecurity that we feel. I can only say that things go towards resolution, but since they have not yet been resolved, it is difficult to feel totally secure.
I know very well that people that have left Greece before the 1970s, they did it because they had no other option in their lives. I do not blame them for that, I myself had to go to England to study, and by no means I do not expect them to come back and live in Greece (that would be a very daunting project for anyone who would attempt it – apart from me :p). I have started for a long time now to think how to eliminate the reasons that make Greeks nowadays emigrate from Greece (unless if they leave by their own wish). I might get politically active some day, who knows.
But yasmine, you are writing in a web site under the tittle “Greeks rethink”, if you consider yourself and Kolokotronis an American above all, why is it not having the tittle “Americans rethink”? And one final thing that made me to write the first post. By intonating the possibility of Jamilah Kolokotronis being a descendant of Kolokotronis the commander (which it really doesn’t matter), seems a bit like a propaganda. It is just like saying: “See, even the ancestors of the Greek revolution are converting now to Islam!”…
Greetings from Greece.
Greeting Ionnas. One flaw: if that was true, then why are there Greek converts in Greece (I mean Greek Orthodox raised and living in Greece choosing to embrace Islam)?
p.s. Please see the disclaimer at the top of the comments.
What a sincere and nice post. I live in UK and I totally sympathise with the adjustments you would have to make by going back to Greece. I am sure your love for the Country must have seen you through the period of adjustment. Your QUOTE[get a job in England and contribute to the gross domestic product of Britain and making oaths to the Queen. ] Hm…. Not sure about it. We as Muslims only make oaths to God and bow to nobody except Allah. And having been abroad you understand how we have to integrate in a multicultural society. You must have done so for 5 years but you kept your Greek identity. Why is this not possible for the rest of us? Your family and your children should be able to live in any part of the world knowing the land of their father, language, customs as they would have the best teacher: You. The article regarding Jamilah Kolokotronis was published as a story of a Greek Revert Muslimah I am sure.
Kind regards from UK
Xenia
My friend Ionnas,
I was born and raised in Greece
)))))
I finished high school there and it was my choice to emigrate to the US, and to become an American…..
Do i love greece? Yes, am i proud of being greek? yes,
do i love America, yes….
We are not second and third generation on this site, and we converted to Islam because we forgot our greek traditions…..that is very naive of you.
We converted to ISlam because we are convinced that it was the Truth.
Simple as that.
Do not try to put us into a box, that we are less patriotic, etc…..
It has nothing to do with culture, country, origin, etc…..
It is a very personal choice. otherwise there would not be hundreds or more of greek converts in Greece as Iman pointed out
Τhe same here. I was born and raised in Greece. I finished High School in Greece. I have not forgotten Greece. We always wish the best for Greece. As I said in a previous post Islam was the Truth for me and all the others in this forum and as Iman mentioned for all the Greekreverts in Greece. Our heart is in the right place. Please do not try to say otherwise.
Regards
Xenia
ImanK, I don’t have statistics.
I have a sense though that it is easier someone away from a living tradition to adopt a different belief (in the general meanning – not necessarilly relligious). That does not mean less patriotic. The references of a Greek living abroad to his country are fading as the time goes by. The references of his kids will be even weaker. Nothing more, nothing less. Personally I refused to make these compromises, (which are being made anyway when someone adopts a new country). It is just that I am a sort of Odyseas that wandered for several years but eventually returned to his penelope…
Ionnas,
I am sure you have seen “my big fat greek wedding”, there is a certain type of greek-american that is more greek than greeks in greece.
My old landlord in Boston, has been in the US for 40 years and spoke only greek and turkish, but never managed to learn a word of english!
And there is the Californian type, that marries Mexican, and forgets his greek identity immediately, because California, is truly “3elogiastra”!!!
the problem that i have is that you are trying to psychoanalyze the reasons why greeks are converting to islam, other than the fact that they realized it is the true religion….
can you explain to me, how come 50% or more of the greek youth is calling themselves “agnostic”, something that is unheard of in the US…..
According to your theory, they live the greek reality and culture every day, so, shouldn’t they be passionate orthodox????
I personally know of many greeks that are Buddist as well in Greece, so i think you really have the choice and opportunity in greece to accept other religions….
And lastly, there are thousands, i mean THOUSANDS of greeks that accepted islam in Asia Minor and Anatolia, and Thessaloniki, before 1922, but of course the greek government and church have never accepted the fact, and never will…….but we all know it happened from the International Unbiased Reports…….
Why should not take things as they are? Why to doubt the “Greekness” of the gentle women who extend their hand for friendship? is it an argument if they pay taxes or not? Do you know how many foreigners here pay taxes? You really think that this site is not Greek, or semi-Greek? If only you knew how many muslims are around you when you walk in Athens…you must deal with this truth first , and then you can have a very nice discussion really fruitful for both sides.
Please do not doubt mrs Jamilah for no reason, remember it was us, the greeks who doubted her ancestor and put him in this hole for 11 years…it is a sad custom of our nation to turn against the brother…help us break this chain.
Ionnas,
I offered two of my most productive years for Greece doing my national service in mid-seventies;eleven months in your island .
Go to Chalkios 96 METH to do a pilgrimage on behalf of me who offered his youth’s strength and sweat to dig the soil of your island under the burning sun or wet to my bone never feeling that time was time lost.
Yasmine
1) I am“agnostic”.
2) I am not passionate about Orthodoxy. In fact I am very critical of it (as I am of religions in general)
3) “And lastly, there are thousands, i mean THOUSANDS of greeks that accepted islam in Asia Minor and Anatolia, and Thessaloniki, before 1922″, I wander under what conditions…
4) Greeks lke “my big fat greek wedding” are not my personal ideal, although even that rough passion about their orgins, is quite respected.
Anna S,
I’m not attacking Mrs Jamilah Kolocotronis! It was her own right to chose her religion as everybody in here (It’s just I really enjoying arguing, and if I was to a site where I would agree with everything and everyone I would get really borred
).
But the way that story was put was a bit provocative. It was like a public relations technique, where it uses someone important. It is just like saying “Michael Jordan wears Reebok”, well then if Michael wears it, we sould too… I mean that Jamilah happened to have the same surname with Kolokotronis the commander, as many Greeks happen to have identical surnames. The fact that she converted with the fact that has the same surname are entirelly irrelevant. Why is it intonated that she is Kolocotronis descendant?
I know that I make the devil’s advocate some times, but there are no bad questions, there are just people who can’t find the best answer…
ok Ionnas,
I really don’t want to got there and i don’t want to chabge the subject, but
the greeks converted to Islam in Asia Minor, under the SAME CONDITIONS that the new muslim refugees and immigrants that enter greece are baptised in churches every day…….
Which is deplorable and says so much about the greek church….
When people are the most vulnrable in their lives, when what they need most in their lives is protection, stability, a roof over their heads, and what they get back is their children being baptised in the greek church, as if this is going to guarantee any special treatment……
And they are still illegal, and subject to deportation when they become 18….
And i really doubt that the greek converts back then, got that same treatment by converting, quite the opposite, actually…..
yasmine
“the Greeks converted to Islam in Asia Minor, under the SAME CONDITIONS that the new muslim refugees and immigrants that enter greece are baptised in churches every day…”
You speak of Iraqis and Arabs and Avgans? Because I have never heard a single story of them converting to Christianity… Those who are baptized they were not religious in the first place, I even wonder if they were Muslims… And since nothing really changes in their lives if they get baptized you cannot blame anyone for them being baptized (no motivation). It was a decision of their own, nobody threatened them with a gun at their head to get baptized. Otherwise you could blame the church for a plan… And how many do you thing they have baptized? In my opinion only a handful.
I have heard stories of catholic Albanians that were baptized Orthodox, but none that was true follower of Islam. In fact I may say that they were not really religious when they had Muslim names, they will not be religious when they will have Christian ones… But that’s why I really like them, they were not going into mosques before and they will not go to churches now… They just don’t give a damn.
And at the end of the day when going to another country I said it before its difficult to preserve your identity, from that rule neither Greece is excepted.
As far as it concerns the Greeks that converted under Ottoman rule, I’m afraid it is an unlucky comparison, since they were living into their homeland and they were facing either extermination or become a Muslim, just read the history.
And something more, I am not proud of the way immigrants are treated in Greece, but you cannot blame Greece for the misfortunes they’ve suffered in their native countries. It is rather America with its policies (the one you said is your country) that has produced them this luck. You wouldn’t expect Greece to be able to handle and save the millions of impoverished and war torn immigrants. That is a role of America and other big countries. If America wants to make wars around the earth, she should accept the immigrants produced by her wars.
Greece is a small country with a very small market and especially job market and the competition between various groups (profesional unions, student unions, municipalities, small companies, cultural unions, and political parties and individuals) to the money pie and to privilegies is intense – in fact it is inhumaine, If you were living here you would understand that (you would feel it). Immigrands are facing the same competition living in Greece and in addition they are in a more disadvantaged possition than the naitives.
Ionnas,
stop treating me as if i am a foreigner, or second generation….
because i was born and raised in greece by greek parents who still live there….I was in greece 4 months ago, and i will be back in August….
And by the way, if you feel you are a better patriot because you live the greek reality every day, I am very sorry for you…..Just because i don’t suffer, that does not make me less greek.
This is why all the immigrants in greece should be given greek papers, because they live the greek reality every day…..
And just because you have never heard of muslim children in greece being converted to Orthodoxy, there are hundrends of cases. The orphan iraqi babies at the orphanages are being baptised……..I have seen the reports on TV and i have heard of them.
It has made the international papers.
But I am not surprised you have never heard of it,because obviously you only see and hear what suits you.
You and your greek government denies greek and foreign muslims of their basic rights, and all you have to say is actually challenge the reasons we chose Islam……..well, is people like you and ignorance who drove lots of us to see what else is out there, rather than bleak darkness……
It is very easy to blame America for everything, go ahead, it is a big country, they can take it, but how about facing RESPONSIBILITY for a change for the country that live.
Now that the immigrants are there, what are you gonna do about it?????
throw them into the sea, throw them in jail, torture them in prison, turn your head away……or maybe decide you are a European country and ACT like one….
yasmine
I don’t treat you as a foreigner or second generation. As far it concerns those basic rights I totally am with you. If I challenge the reasons why you chose islam is that it is totally incomprehensible to me. It might be because I really don’t believe I am an “agnostic” so personally I would never try to find answers leaving one religion and trying to adopt another.
As far it concerns imigration, it is the other European countries that deny the acceptance of imigrants in an equally distributed way, they are the ones who have made Greece to force the imigrants to remain to Greece and not let them leave to the destination they please. It is those European countries that are deporting imigrants back to Greece (even when they have entered EU from giblartar). Which means that if the other european countries have the right to deny imigration so has Greece. Turkey also denies to accept back deported imigrants, that have entered EU from her borders. But the result is that Greece is facing a higher presure from the problem than other countries. In effect Greece has become EU’s dump yiard for imigrants. What do you expect the local Greeks to do about it? Just accept the fact that people with no relation to the country come into the milions? That causes reaction, fear and mistrust. So don’t blame just Greece fo racism. It is a social phaenomenon, not a Greek one. And the causes that create it don’t lie in Greece, nor Greece alone can give the solution to all these people comming in.
Now about the orphan iraqi babies at the orphanages that are being baptised, I honestly never heard before. And what are Iraqi orphans doing in Greece? Is Iraq sending its orphans (I am not mocking you I just really havent heard that before…)?
Ionnas,
I agree with you 1000% on the subject of returning to greece in order not to lose your greek culture, because i just came back from the greek festival here in San Diego, and i was the only greek speaker, among hundrends of people……i ordered loukoumades, and when i said “efxaristw” the woman looked at me as if i told her the Pythagorian theory…..
I want to go back to greece and have children that speak greek too, because i am really upset and sad right now……
This is why i really believe that all the children born iin greece by immigrants should be given the greek citizenship, because naturally they are more greek than the second and third generation “greek-americans” that will never speak greek and will never travel there, while those children live the greek reality every day….
The same goes for the refugees, because they are more familiar with the greek culture, and actually love greece and its people.
What is happening in greece with immigration, is happening all over Europe, and it is something very hard to be stopped,or reversed…..
Millions of people in Africa and Asia, feel that there is no future in their countries and are looking for a better life in europe and America…
i don’t know what it feels to be in their shoes, so i cannot judge them…..
Only when the economies in their countries improve, they will return home, something that actually happened in India and Dubai……
About the iraqi orphans, i saw a report on greek TV, and have read it also on greek and international papers…..They were baptising them, in order to be more “adoptable” for greek families…..i cannot really say….
This is why i really believe that all the children born iin greece by immigrants should be given the greek citizenship, because naturally they are more greek than the second and third generation “greek-americans” that will never speak greek and will never travel there, while those children live the greek reality every day….
If what you are suggesting would happen, then, in a few dozens of years, there would be NO Greece as you and we all know it. The Greek language would be .. greek (something else) . A non Greece, …, a new Greece, a different Greece…!
The question is, do we want to experience such a dramatic change?? No.!. Are we prepared to accept it? No.!. Why? Because, Greeks have had enough and they are willing to take back their country, by any means. Wow! what a change … and How can we do this? A Greece fortress? A Greece Thermopyles … em? oh? we cannot and should not … shoot them, for God’s sake!! Then, what?
Then, we should keep quite and see how can we comfort the immigrants’ lives, so that, to send them back to their countries.
Aha! do we have the money to pay for the flights back home? No!
Is it feasible? No!
Then, hush and eat the cucumber!! LOL .. ie: immigrants should be given the greek citizenship !!
Thanks, Jasmine. You helped me, clarify my (?) … thoughts …
pierra,
I am afraid that what you are suggesting is no immigration policy. That is the problem in Greece every one has an opinion about everything but nobody has a policy to suggest. And the problem is that neither the government has a policy. The government has the opinion of the exit polls which in their side have the opinion of the people, well hello! people are not policy designers. If people feel something causes them problem or mistrust will not say we have to implement a policy to deal with the issue, they will just say sent the immigrants away. And the government since it has no policies on the matter is dragged by opinion polls to do what the people say.
An opinion is: “sent them all back from where they came”. A policy is one that has some goals to achieve and has one by one numbered steps that has to implement to achieve these goals. For example a policy would be to deal with the problem of immigration in a way that first of all would not make the local Greeks feel threatened by immigrants. It would not make them feel that their culture is under threat of extinction, it would not make them feel that they are becoming a minority in their own country, it would not make them feel they are in the sway of criminality, because if they feel this is happening they are most likely to become more xenophobic, more racists, and to turn to political domains where these elements consist their backbone (extreme right). Another objection would be to ensure that immigrants are treated with decency and those who should receive asylum, they receive it.
It is very easy to blame someone to be an extreme right follower or racist when he complains about a problem that may immigrants causing (locally – some places have become like ghettos, but not all Greece is ike that). If nobody hears what they say and the first option (especially from the left) is to accuse them of being racists then it is very likely to turn towards anyone who is willing to hear their complaints, and if that is extreme right, so may it be!
And this is happening in Greece because the general feeling of the people is that the Government has no control over the subject. That it is totally overwhelmed by the facts. That it just reacts to the incidents(i.e. σκούπες). And yes things may not be that bad with immigration but since there is no policy on the subject it is very easily to speculate that in the future as the things are progressing right now it will turn bad!
I personally struggle many nights trying to understand things (I know I have the bug of politics – I hope you vote for me if I ever decide to get involved :p). So I make attempts to suggest policies.
One I came up with ,is that, citizenship should become easier to achieve for immigrants who have born in Greece and have attended for some years elementary school (5 maybe 10 years), if they wanted to chose that – think first that right now these kids are staying until 18 years old and still don’t get citizenship. It should have another option for someone to select to have a long time working permit that at the end (after 5, 10 or 15 years, he could chose that) would get something like a grand (from money he would pay all those 15 years for medical security and the like – κάτι σαν εφάπαξ, but that would require a system separate of the current security and pension system of the “aboriginals”), but with the obligation to leave the country at the end of the 5, 10 or 15 years, that obviously would be appropriate for those who mainly came to work and are not interested in getting the citizenship. Plus that until the end of this working permit would not require any renewal of their permission papers, other than paying the monthly portion money of the scheme, that in addition would guarantee to these people a a status of legality that right now is constantly under revision, it would disentangle them from the right now unfortunate every day dealing with the police.
Another step on this immigration policy would be to press the other Europe members to distribute illegal immigrants that are caught in Greece, Spain or Italy to all EU members, according to their population size, their economy and maybe its geographical size. That would mean instead of 150,000 illegal immigrants that are coming through Greece, where now Greece is obligated to keep them in her borders or if it can send them back to Turkey, to spread them in all over Europe in small chunks (e.g. 150/16 = 9.73 thousands only!, or if we take in account the countries that are not yet into eurozone the number is even smaller).
Lastly, a final not so nice step would be to sent some of illegal immigrants, especially when there is no war in their countries back with a ship. Remember that right now, people are dumped in cells for months, without knowing what their future is going to be. Then they are left free for some time to try to leave the country on their own (illegally, since Greece is obligated by the other EU countries to keep them in her borders and try to return them to the previous country where they came from), they are arrested then again by the police, are beaten up, and then left free again, in order to “understand” that they are not welcomed here… That is the policy of the state right now. I believe it is more decent and honest if we don’t want these people here to send them back to their country with a ship (that the state would pay), in a trip that will last no more than 10-15 days, rather than inflict all this schizophrenia on them to make them feel unwelcomed.
I believe a system like that would sedate fear feelings of the locals, would make easier to give asylum to people that really need it, it would stop putting more pressure on the salaries of unskilled workforce, it would give a legal status for a long time to immigrants that came here either to get a job and make some money or to those who may chose to stay in Greece as Greek citizens.
I wrote “objection” instead of “objective”…
Ionnas,
i actually like your immigration policies very much…..
What pierra said, was so racist, that i am still shocked…..it sounds like LAOS…but i am not surprised either…..
When somebody has been born in Greece, BORN, and has gone to elemendary school, high school, they are 18 years old…..and have no papers…..you want to send those people where??????
what else do they have to do to be part of greece??
But i forgot, in their vains, there is no greek blood, they don’t come from Dias, Ira, ktl…..aristotle and socrates……but wait, so 50% of greeks too……because in 1922, everybody in the balkans that was orthodox, could enter greece and become greek……..plenty of Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Armenians, Russians, etc….did just that…..but let us not talk about that, because i really don’t want to go there……..
So, I am pretty confident that the 200,0000 children of immigrants will be given their papers, sooner or later…..as for the illegals, i cannot comment about that…..but the legal immigrants who have been working (very hard) in greece will be given their legal visas.
I know that upsets you very much Pierra, because it spoils the image of greece that you have in your mind——-and it exists only in your mind——because that greece has long been gone……Albanian farmers are working the fields for the last 20 years, so you can have milk and tomatoes on your table every day………and Pakistanis are sweeping your streets, so you all won’t die from typhus in Athens…….but i will not spoil you fantasy, you can still imagine in your head that you live in Athens 500 BC, in Pericles times, go ahead my dear…..I hope that makes you feel better….
Americans were also very upset that a black man would be President, but the next day they saw that the sun came up again, and the world continued spinning, and that he was actually very capable……
So, you too, in Greece, will have to get used to the idea, that those foreigners that you cannot stand, they will be part of greek society, will speak greek, write greek, read greek and continue greece’s legacy, for the world to see……and admire……
This is a link in youtube about a playlist of short films about immigration all over the world (Greece, France, India, America, etc) if you have the patience to watch them all, you’ll see that the problem and the reactions are global not a Greek phaenomenon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq1JVofrxdM&feature=PlayList&p=DE81050985862CBD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19
[MOD Reminder: Note: Blog post comments and forum comments do not reflect the opinion of Greeks Rethink; rather it is the opinion of the individual author. The same applies for links given by individuals]
Hi there!
The World has been been shaped and through immigration.
Some examples;Greeks settled at the coastline of the Meditteranean and Black Sea(no wives on board),Phoenicians too.
Mongols moved westwards and the Slavs entered the European forests to hide but they pushed the Germans out of their lands and schwarzwalds to enter the Roman territory seeking safety.Turkish tribes moved south to the Indian Subcontinent,C.Asia,Iran,Egypt and Anatolia.
The Vikings landed in the Brittish Islands to complete what the Saxons left undone when chased by Charlemagne in their homeland.
Europeans emmigrated to the New World and established imperia.
That was the era of non controlled immigraion.
We had the controlled immigration finishing by now..
Another era of non controlled immigration started at the the end of the 20th century that made millions all around the world displaced,refugees,starving, due to wars,conflicts(reshaping the world by nation building),drought,floods and famine(climate change).
All at the best interests of the western way of life.
The answer to this global challenge must be of a global scale or is doomed to fail.
By the way it costs about 10-15.000$ fo an Afghani to pay smugglers etc to reach the coasts of Europe.
Have you ever heard about supported immigration?
Who rembers the Kurds who flocked to the greek coasts in the 90’s/
You see Jasmine, I only allow myself to make a mistake ONCE.
Do not try to insult me, because, I now know what kind of person you are.
So, I ‘ll leave in your peace of hate. I won’t bother to answer to you.
Because, although my statement was following your way of thinking, instead, your mind and heart is so full of hate, that you did’t understand what I wrote. You misinterpret me.
So, please, don’t bother to answer to my questions or statements, by insulting me, it would be a waste of time for you.
bilal you forgot to mention that the world is also shaped unfortunately by wars. I do agree in part with Ionnas statement that. ‘Another step on this immigration policy would be to press the other Europe members to distribute illegal immigrants that are caught in Greece, Spain or Italy to all EU members, according to their population size, their economy and maybe its geographical size.’ But I would also add that those nations such as the US and UK whose military foreign policy is responsible for displacing people should also carry the majority of the burden of taking in immigrants and refugees from war torn regions that they initially created. I would like to also know what the wealthy Muslim nations are doing towards absorbing immigrants/refugees from places like Somolia, Iraq and Afganistan. Obviously immigrants and refugees from those nations have more in common with wealthy Arab states than they do with Christian Greece. Perhaps my analysis is wrong? Could it be that people are fleeing not due to war but to escape theocracies such as Iran for liberal European nations? But why would anyone leave a nation that practices Islamic law for the secular laws of the West? Better yet, why leave and then demand the same laws in the West? Many immigarnts and refugees are victims of war but Greece did not create any of their wars, and is too small both in terms of geography and population to let in all those who want in, for if we did we would loose our identity in the process, and there is no denying the fact. Anyways it is not the responsibility of Greece to accept vast amounts of immgrants and refugees so as to appease the European Union who are not taking in their fair share or to appease the US who instigated large scale war in the Middle East in the first place or even to appease those whose interest lies in seeing Greece become a Muslim state.
Oλοι αυτοι οι μεταναστες που ερχονται λαθραια στη χωρα μας δεν ερχονται και τοσο “λαθραια” οσο νομιζουμε,καποιοι ελληνες τα παιρνουν χοντρα,και αν η πολιτεια δεν μεριμνει …..οτι και να λεμε εμεις….φωνη βοωντος εν τη ερημο….
Δεν ειναι θεμα ρατσισμου αλλα ουτε εμενα με ενθουσιαζει η ιδεα οτι σε λιγα χρονια,που σιγουρα θα γινει ετσι οπως παμε, θα ψαχνουμε ελληνα με τα κυαλια!
Οπως και αλλες χωρες ,ετσι και η Ελλαδα,που ειναι και μια σταλια,με περιορισμενες θεσεις εργασιας κ.τ.λ.,πρεπει το κρατος να βαλει ενα οριο.
Μη βιαστουν καποιοι να με πουν ρατσιστρια,δεν ειμαι καθολου,και σεβομαι και συμπασχω με τους μεταναστες αλλα να υπαρχουν ΟΡΙΑ και κανονες,αυτη τι στιγμη το κρατος επιτρεπει την ελευση τους χωρις να μεριμνει μητε για αυτους μητε για τους ελληνες,ουτε υπαρχουν θεσεις εργασιας για ολους μας μεταναστες και μη.
Οι ελληνες που ζουμε στην Ελλαδα και κυριως αυτοι που δεν δουλευουν στην επιχειρηση του μπαμπα τους και χτυπαν πορτες να βρουν μια δουλεια και ειμαστε εδω και ζουμε με το προβλημα ,το βιωνουμε στο “πετσι” μας.
Να ερθουν ,ναι,αλλα το κρατος να φροντισει και τι θα απογινουν ,οχι ηρθανε ,τ’αρπαξαμε και τωρα ας κοψουν το λαιμο τους.
I see both sides. I think each side has points to make. In our archives I found an article we had published.
http://www.greeksrethink.com/2008/10/greeces-suicidal-immigration-policy-takes-its-toll/
It is sad. The exploitation that some of the immigrants also suffer!!! Doing jobs that nobody else wants to do, at rates that the average Greek would turn their nose at, the insecurity for their future and that of their children, It is not an exclusive Greek immigration problem but a problem everywhere. And then they get people like us, discussing and discussing ” we want them out, we want them there, we want….. we want…….., they have no right to be here, how did they dare come and upset our precious balances, how this and how that…….” Everything has its limits. Do not talk. Do something. Lobby your Governments for a pressing solution to the matter, help by increasing awareness to the problems, help as fellow human beings. But dont stop here just blaming each other and the Government.
Be clear. And do it. Do not wait for somebody else to sort it out for you.
If the governement got it wrong tell them. If they got it right also tell them. If they can do soemthing , tell them. But do not sit idle.
For every problem there is a solution. I hope!
And by the way Pierra voiced her opinion. It is a democratic forum. We do not label anyone as racist. Her comments were her opinion and it goes for all of us. Cut the talk and go for action. We all have feelings. Dont trend on them please.
I am making this post as a Moderator. Respect and value each other.
Xenia
Moderator
Μα το λεει ο λαος καθε μερα στο κρατος Ξενια μου αλλα ποιος τους ακουει?
Νομιζεις πως δεν το λεει? Εχεις δει ελληνικες ειδησεις να δεις πως διαμαρτυρεται ο κοσμος?
Ο κοσμος ασφαλως εχει ρατσισμο γιατι μετα την ελευση οχι μονο αραβων και πακιστανων,αλλα και κουρδων,σερβων,βουλγαρων,ρουμανων,αλβανων,ρωσσων και δε ξερω ακομα ποιον αλλον η εγκληματικοτητα και η ανεργια εχει αυξηθει κατα κορον,και ποιος φταιει για αυτο? εγω κι εσυ? αυτοι που ηρθαν εδω? οχι βεβαια, το κρατος φταιει γιατι μερικοι απο αυτους ειναι ανθρωποι σαν ολους εμας ενω αλλοι ειναι εγκληματιες,ποιος ελεγξε το παρελθον τους? οταν στην Αλβανια ανοιξαν τις φυλακες και βγηκαν οι εγκληματιες και ηρθαν στην Ελλαδα και απο τοτε ο κοσμος εχει ρατσισμο με τους αλβανους ,ποιος τους ανοιξε “τις πορτες”? εσυ κι εγω? φταιει ο κοσμος που εχει ρατσισμο? ποιος καλλιεργησε αυτον τον ρατσισμο στον κοσμο?
Ποιος ακουει τον λαο?
Δε φταιει λοιπον το κρατος και η εκαστοτε κυβερνιση?
Να κανουμε τι εμεις?
Να τους βρουμε δουλεια ενω δεν εχουμε ουτε εμεις?
Να τους πουμε “να εισαστε καλα παιδακια και να μην κλεβετε και σκοτωνετε” στους εγκληματιες?
Αρα που θα στραφουμε? στο κρατος.
Και το κρατος τι κανει?
Σφυριζε αδιαφορα και η μια κυβερνηση τα ριχνει στην αλλη.
Οσο για τις δουλειες που λες που κανουν αυτες που δεν κανει κανεις,δεν ειχαμε παντα αλλοδαπους οικοδομους και αγροτες,ναι καποιοι δουλευουν για ψιχουλα και καποιοι αλλοι ζητανε περισσοτερα απο τους ντοπιους
και μπραβο τους αν το αξιζει η εργασια τους αλλα μην τα ισοπεδωνουμε ολα,το νομισμα εχει παντα δυο πλευρες.
Aααα επισης να μην ξεχασω τους Χιλιανους που εχουν ρημαξει τα πορτοφολια στα λεωφορεια,τις Βραζιλιανες,τους Πολωνους/ες,Ουκρανους/ες.
Τρομαξατε? κι εγω! Μολις τωρα συνηδειτοποιησα οτι εχουμε ολες τις φυλες του Ισραηλ στον τοπο μας.
Αρα μονο για ρατσιστες δεν μπορει να μας κατηγορησει κανεις!
ALLAH Says in Quraan. O Adam we have created you and spread the whole mankind from you and you all spread on earth for in search of food and livelyhood. We are responsible for that we will feed you and you will access one limit the life we gave you here and after that you have to come to us… And we will show you what deed you submit here and will make justice on the day of judgement….and we are enough for every body.
Mrs Jamilah!!!
You don’t speak Greek, you chose to embrace Islam when young since you never really experienced Orthodox Christianity. It is your choice to chose whatever you wish to believe. I am not judging anyone. However, your true ancestor, Theodoros Kolokotronis would be spinning in his grave this instant.
We don’t need Muslims in Greece, We lived through it for 400 years. The forced islamization, the killings, the tortures, the destruction of the Greek language, the abduction of little Greek girls and boys, the forced slavery, the Muslim taxation, the involuntary marriages of little Greek girls to Muslim leaders, the destruction of Byzantine churches, the Janissary, are all part of our Greek history that we wish to be forgotten. We have grown to be quite sensitive to issues like this. Our culture and people inhabited lands which now belong to Muslims and the orthodox faith helped us gain our freedom. We are already having trouble keeping all these values still intact, Hearing Greeks become Arabs is a dagger to us.
With this new fad of young Greeks converting en mass to this backward religion with no reform praying to some Allah which whether he exists is still debatable is a threat to our culture.
This website is a tool of propaganda and needs to be shutdown. You are polluting the minds of young Greek youth.
Islam is not the true answer. Mecca was conquered through war although peacefully since the Arab overloads did not ave enough money to organize an effective resistance. Muhammed was nor mystical and never be. I could tear up pages from the Bible and proclaim whatever I wish to proclaim. Muhammed wished to unite his nation, the Arabs. He used his religion as a way to do so. The Arabs, once united went on delivering the so called message of Alla to the world. Thousands perished.
■Dear Petros ,
What ever you write here is not about Islam this is today commercial world who only know how to make the profit. If you want to know Islam truely come to India to me you are welcome or you can go Saudi Arabia or any muslim nation in mid east…
Do not forget that we have give you Christianity we teach you all about Jesus Christ and Bible you was not nothing still you do not preserve any thing what you got from us and when we got final prophet with the message of ALLAH swt you do not like us…
Hello All,
I am a Turkish guy from Turkey. It was very interesting for me to read all these nice comments and resists on my Greek muslim sister. I know Greek christians will get anger on me and you will say it doesn’t concern you but I want to share my feelings. Islam is not Turks or Arab’s religion. God (Allah) sent this beautiful religion to all universe. This is not our treasure to keep it from other races like Jewish religion. We beleive only one God (allah) and his prophet Muhammed (SAV). Also we beleive to Jesus and his name is mentioned more than Muhammed in holly Quran. His name is mentioned 25 times and Muhammed (SAV) name is mentioned only 4 times. Do you beleive that? If you read Quran, you can find all the truth about Jesus and Islam. Before resisting to my sisters decision, please read more about Islam. Then you will find the truth of God and his words, I know this is not a easy thing but If you are here and writing your comments, then taht means you are so close to Islam. Do not miss this chance. I love Greeks because we are so closer than every citizen in the world and I know how beleiver you are.
Islam is not only a religion but it is a life style designed by the creator and feeder of mankind all mighty ALLAH swt and he sent prophets to mankind to guide them to true path of success and also attached desires and feelings and decorate this world with womens and wealths and emotions and feelings. Who will maintain balance in all this things and will obey true creator all mighty will be awarded the paradise for ever and there will be no end to that and his or her all desire will be fullfilled in paradise for ever and hence the world is not right place to fullfill the desire here..This is place where we can prepare for life after and all prophet done only job they teach the lesson to mankind to recognise their true creator and worship right is only of all mighty creator ALLAH swt.. Who will worship any other apart from him will find his placed in hell fire…. because worship right is of only true creator all mighty ALLAH swt…… if any one has question can ask me….. pathanzamir@gmail.com