Q. Why would a Greek chose a religion that is so antithetical to his own culture?
October 4, 2008 by ImanK
Q. I’m simply curious as to why a Greek would choose a religion that is so antithetical to his or her own culture. Beyond that, there are more general questions about Islam and its treatment of non-believers that I, as a non-believer, would like answered. Perhaps you can help.
A. Thank you for asking about our religion and coming forth with your question. I will answer the question based on my own experience as a Greek convert. I know this is a really long post, but please bear with me.
(Special note to the questioner: Before we start, I have a special request, actually two. First, I need you to forget about your culture for just a few minutes and think openmindely and objectively. Second, I would like you to make a prayer. I know you wouldn’t normally agree to this since you are an agnostic, but please, just try it. It’s not going to hurt. Turn to the one who created the heavens and the earth (whoever you think that is and even if it’s ‘unknown’) and say, ‘The one who created the heavens and the earth, if you have the power, strength and knowledge to create these, then you surely have the power to show me the truth. If you are out there, guide me to the truth, whatever that may be’ I know this might sound insane to you, but please trust me on this one. )
I’m serious, just try it.
For me, it all started when I was very young (about 7 years old, actually!) when I first started to contemplate on what the purpose of life is. I’ve never really understood it but growing up, it would sometimes become a burning question that I did not have an answer to. Without an answer, I would then often drift into “go with the flow” mode, where the purpose of life is the ol’ get a good education, get a good paying job, get married, by a house and a nice car…. and then, well, die.
I first met Muslims in my university classes. Before that, they were always around me but I just never noticed. I honestly naively thought that the entire world was full of Christians only! Can you believe it? I thought it was a really strange thing that anyone would believe in some wierd god, oppress their women and speak some wierd language but I was still respectful to them because I felt sorry for them.
Later our discussions transformed into full-fledge debates at the student cafeteria. I was their staunch opponent. I started becoming more and more practising as a Greek Orthodox and going back to the church, perhaps because I felt that I had to defend my religion – everything that I was raised with.
Without that much knowledge about Islam, it was harder to convince them that they were dead wrong, so when no one was looking, I would sneak into the library and try to find some books about Islam. What I found were some books that looked like they were published 1000 years ago – they were so ancient, it seemed! So, then I started to search online as well. I needed some substantial evidence to prove that they were wrong.
Then everything changed. I made a prayer that God show me the truth. I wanted to know and I was so sincere in that prayer.
I was absolutely sure that the truth would be Christianity and that the Muslims will soon find out but God had another plan for me.
When no one was looking, I started to step back from my preconceived notions and started to think objectively for the first time in my life. Why are Muslims so strict about not associating Jesus (peace be upon him) as God? Don’t they know that we need Jesus to be a salvation for our sins?
I went to visit our local priest and asked him a lot of questions, especially about the trinity. I finally had the guts to nonchalantly bring up the word ‘Islam’ (for all those Greeks out there, you know how hard that would be!) but as soon as I uttered that word, his eyes immediately bulged out of his head and he strongly suggested that I stay away from those bad people. However, the problem was that he didn’t answer my questions with proper answers. It was all a big run-around.
That just left me on my own to find out. Slowly, with more and more research and evidence, my heart was realizing the truth of one God without partners but my mind was opposing it with all its might. I just couldn’t even dream of leaving everything known to me – my religion, my culture, my family, my rituals and celebrations- behind.
Then it happened in my bedroom. I was finishing up some more reading on the subject and contemplating heavily if Jesus is really God or not. All of a sudden, within a few seconds, I felt something go through me very quickly, as if it was some fresh air or spirit washing out my heart and then BOOM (!), automatically, I felt this massive, I mean massive, sense of tranquility and almost said outoud, ‘Jesus is not God!’.
Then immediately after that, I thought, ‘How in the world am I going to tell my parents that I am Muslim?’
I know what I am writing is going to be extremely difficult for some to believe. No, I was not possessed by some devil or spirit. Actually, I found when speaking to other converts that some of them related the same thing to me (before I even mentioned my story to them). Now, after knowing more about Islam, I do believe that it was God answering my initial prayer and it was, perhaps, an angel, under the instruction of God, who cleansed my soul of the prior disbelief.
So, this is a super long post – sorry for that- so to conclude, I would like to answer your question, why would a Greek choose a religion so antithetical to his or her own culture? Well, for a few reasons.
First, it wasn’t my intention to do so. In fact, it was the complete opposite but in my search for the truth, I found that it was that God is one without any partners. I later found the answer to my question of what the purpose of life is explicitly mentioned beautifully in the Qur’an.
Second, after seeing all this truth, my priorties in life changed drastically. I no longer was going with the flow for worldly success only. I now had (and have) a primary goal of reaching paradise so whatever I can do to take me there, I will do. If that is to leave some of my cultural aspects that contradict worshipping one God without associating partners, then I will do so.
Third, becoming a Muslim does not mean I forfeit my culture. In fact, Islam embraces diversity of all cultures. For example, I have lots of friends who are Pakistani, Somalian, Arab, Greek, Bosnian, Canadian, British, Chinese, Indian, Italian, Spanish, etc who are Muslim. Islam embraces culture and actually Islamic law is very dynamic in the sense that it changes with the people, culture, customs, generations, technology etc.
This is why we say we are Greek Muslim. I hope that I have answered your question fully and that it has given you greater understanding of us. I pray that the creator of the heavens and the earth show you the truth.
I hope that we can create a discussion based on sincerity, honesty and respect. I look forward to receiving your top 3-5 questions about the other aspects of Islam you have.
My impression of what you have written is that you are a person who needs all the answers to be expressly articulated to him or her (I don’t know if you’re male or female, my apologies). You’re the kind of person who needs religion in order to function properly in his or her life, so you chose the most hardcore religion out there and went with it. You did far more than simply reject Jesus as “God”. I did that too, but I rejected the entire notion of “God” in the process. I did that after researching the history of “God”, and discovering that he started out as nothing more than a Jewish deity. Consequently, he should be regarded as no different from the gods of any other culture. As a Greek, I realized that I’m under no obligation to venerate a foreign deity. Why the Jewish god? Why not the Hindu gods, for example?
You, on the other hand, “submitted” to Allah, as Islam commands you to do, so you wouldn’t have to keep asking yourself the burning questions that kept you awake at night. I’m not like that. I like asking myself questions, even if I know I can never find out the answers. I can live with uncertainty; life is full of it.
As for my other questions, they mainly relate to how Islam is applied in the real world and how it affects non-Muslims like me. Why does my word not count against that of a Muslim? Why am I considered ritually unclean, an infidel and a Harbi whose life has no value and may therefore be legitimately disposed of in the name of Islam? Why should Muslims be allowed to build a mosque in Athens when Greeks are not allowed to step foot in Mecca or Medina, let alone build a Greek Orthodox church there? Why should innocent people in the West live in fear of being blown up by Muslims on a plane, train or bus? Why should the West tolerate Muslims when non-Muslims are systematically persecuted in places like Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan?
True, I like millions out there, I need certainty in my life when it comes to questions like, “Why am I here on this earth?”, “How did I get here?”, “Who created me?”, “Who created the heavens and the earth?”, “Is this all a game, or are we one day going to have something else after we die?”, and “What’s the point of acting morally or ethical because if I don’t, so what, will I ever be punished for it?” etc.
Macedonian, have you ever had these types of questions run through your mind? Do you feel comfortable not knowing the answers to these questions?
(I will, God willing, answer the rest of your posts soon but I was curious to find out the answer to my questions above first. p.s. I’m a female.)
Do you wear the hijab or niqab? And how do you feel about women who don’t? Are you one of four wives?
Macedonian, you are really good at answering questions with questions.
I don’t see how the questions in post #3 are relevant to the discussion at all but I will answer them, God willing when I answer the rest.
Now here are my questions again:
Macedonian, have you ever had these types of questions run through your mind? Do you feel comfortable not knowing the answers to these questions?
Yes, and yes
Thank you for answering my questions.
Now, to move on.
“…so you chose the most hardcore religion out there and went with it. ”
“Why the Jewish god? Why not the Hindu gods, for example?”
Like I said in my original post, I wasn’t looking to follow Islam. Actually, I was a stanch opponent of it – you can say I was like you in your comments to Islam and your views of Greek nationalism. I was fighting my soul not to enter this way of life but God had other plans for me.
I don’t believe in the ‘Jewish’ god as you are saying. I believe in the one God that created Jews, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, animals, plants, food etc. from the beginning of time until the end of time. That is the God that created the first human being and prophet, Adam (peace be upon him) so it wouldn’t be accurate to say that it’s a Jewish god. Also, as far as I know, every other religion does believe in this One God as I do… their problem is that the associate multiple gods along with Him.
Macedonian, here’s my next question (and please answer it):
What will happen to you when you die?
I’ll go straight to hell? Is that what you want me to say? All I know for certain is that I’ll rot like any other living organism after death. That includes you. Do you know for sure where you’re going? Is there absolutely no hint of doubt in your mind?
The reason he is a Jewish god is because the Jews were the first to worship him. You say he created everything and therefore predates the Jews but that’s just your belief, not historical fact. In reality, the Jews and Christians adopted many of the myths of older cultures, such as the Persians and Greeks. Ultimately, religion is a man-made invention, and there is no serious reason why I should believe one group of people (you, for example) over another. All are equally clueless.
“The reason he is a Jewish god is because the Jews were the first to worship him. ”
Prophet Adam (peace be upon him), the first human being, was the first to worship God. The Jews lived thousands of years later.
“I’ll go straight to hell? Is that what you want me to say?”
No, not at all. I just wanted to know your belief in this matter. Yes, I agree that our body will rot in the grave. But our souls will either go to heaven or hell after the Day of Judgement, and that includes you.
I am 100000000% certain of it not because I claim to be arrogant to know but because the One who created the heavens and the earth (the mightest creation) has revealed that to mankind.
My next question:
If you do not believe anything will happen after you die and you will not be taken to account for what good or bad you did in this life, then what’s the point of doing good deeds? If you are not going to get punished for let’s say killing, stealing, oppressing others, insulting, swearing, treating others badly, then why would you not go ahead and do that?
In other words, for example, what’s stopping you from robbing a bank if you knew you can get away with it?
But you can’t get away with it. If you harm others, inevitably they will try to do the same to you. You don’t need religion to tell you that; it’s common sense. You say “Prophet Adam” was the first to worship “God”. That’s from the Jewish Bible or Old Testament, isn’t it? Where’s the actual historical proof of his existence, verified by a neutral (non-Jewish) source? It’s funny, though. You Muslims despise Israel and the Jews, yet you follow their mythology to the letter.
Who said I hate Jews? Jews and Christians are People of the Book to us because our (original) scriptures all come from the same source: One God.
I wasn’t quoting from the Old testament; I was quoting from the Qur’an:
[3:59]The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was.
[7:11]And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, “Prostrate to Adam”, and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate.
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People have gotten away with very bad deeds. You didn’t answer my question,
“If you knew you would get away with it 100%, would you rob a bank (or anything else like that)?
I’ve already answered your question. Bad deeds breed more bad deeds, and that applies whether you follow a religion or not. I’m not a Christian and I’m not a Jew. Where does that leave me in your belief system? Do I have the right to exist?
That still doesn’t answer the specific question at hand.
Let me rephrase it. If someone does something bad and no one sees him doing it, will he be judged for that? If so, by who? In other words, Where will be the justice in someone committing a criminal act if no one catches him?
As for your belief system, I just see you as someone who doesn’t believe in God. It’s up to God to keep you living or to cause you to die. It’s not up to me or anyone else.
The justice will be in his tortured conscience, and the fact that one day he *will* be caught. On the other hand, we have Muslims committing criminal acts in the name of Allah on a daily basis. Their religion justifies murder, in their minds. What do you have to say about that?
I have a wonderful response for you about what you mentioned about Muslims ‘committing criminal acts in the name of Allah’ and, God willing, I can answer it at a later time if you’d like. But I don’t want to get side-tracked to our main topic here.
Ok, so let’s assume for a second that if someone does something bad and no one will find out about it, that his only punishment would be his tortured conscience like you said.
We do have to admit that there are people out there who have committed criminal acts without being caught. Let’s face it. That’s reality.
So, let’s say for example, Mr. X murders 10 people and doesn’t get caught (let’s say that someone else gets the blame for it and that he got off free).
I have some questions for you:
1. Is this fair, knowing that he will not be punished?
2. If he gets that ‘tortured conscience’ feeling, who put that feeling in him? Or, who made people feel bad when they do something wrong? In other words, who put this ‘internal clock’ of guilty feelings when they do something wrong if they are not going to get punished for it? And please don’t tell me Darwin.
3. Human beings always like to weigh pros and cons so let’s say Mr. X wants to steal something worth $5000. He thinks to himself, my chances of getting caught are very slim and even if I do get caught, I will just have a 1 week jail sentence, no big deal. So, he goes and steals it, doesn’t get caught and enjoys the $5000 item. He doesn’t feel guilty at all and has no tortured conscience. He tells his friends about how he pulled it off. They like the idea since it’s so easy and they do the same. Then they tell their friends, who tell their friends and all of a sudden, stealing is very common in the entire country (it actually is here in the West). Where’s the justice in this case?
4. All people have that internal clock, but some people are just committed so many criminal or bad acts that they just don’t have any remorse anymore whatsoever. What is their punishment? Would it be fair?
I hope that you can answer my four questions, one by one.
1. Fair or not, it happens. 3. And, believe it or not, being religious does not make one immune to committing crimes. I have a friend who is an Iraqi Christian refugee. He tells me that stealing, specifically looting, was very common in Iraq after the downfall of Saddam Hussein. Among the looters’ most prized booty were copies of the Koran, as they were obviously devout Muslims. It didn’t stop them, did it?
2. As for why humans are inculcated with a sense of morality, it probably has something to do with the survival instinct. From an evolutionary point of view, we needed a bare minimum of harmony so we wouldn’t eliminate each other in an orgy of revenge killings. All I know is that it seems to be independent of religion or lack thereof. In fact, many more people are killed or maimed by religious fanatics than by agnostics or atheists, especially in the Muslim world, wouldn’t you agree?
4. Again, I don’t see how religion helps in this regard. Quite the contrary, in fact. Do Islamic fundamentalists have any remorse for 9/11? Did the Catholics have any remorse for the Crusades or the Inquisition? Did the Ottomans have any remorse for the Genocides they committed against the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks of Anatolia? The list goes on and on…
Wow, Macedonian, you really know how to change the subject with loaded posts. Although, I would have lots to say to answer your post, let’s just stick to the topic at hand first.
1. “Fair or not, it happens.”
We’ve already established that it happens. But both you and I know that it’s not fair and definitely not due justice. There HAS to be justice in every single act someone does, big or small, otherwise, there would be anarchy. I think you would agree.
2. “it probably has something to do with the survival instinct. ”
Probably? Are you not sure? I said please don’t bring me Darwin theory… as far as I know, Darwin never claimed internal feelings were evolutionized as well. He may claim some wierd theory that our physical bodies evolved from apes, but there is no way that he can claim the same with the feeling of guilt and remorse kicking in when we do something wrong.
3. and 4. I didn’t ask for examples of what people do. We are talking about religion here and only laymen bring up examples of what followers of that religion do. Religion is always based on its scriptures – not its followers.
You didn’t answer #4. If someone commits crimes continuously and then doesn’t feel that torture conscience as you said would be the only punishment, then would it be fair that they have no punishment?
Please don’t take offense to what I’m saying. We need to establish what happens to those people who commit criminal acts or even sins. There must be a system of justice and fairness. But it seems, from what you have said, that in the agnostic world, there is no system for justice.
In the secular world, there is a thing called the justice system. You know, courts and judges. It’s not Sharia, so you may not even recognize its authority in the state you inhabit, but it does the job.
What do you mean by “only laymen bring up examples of what followers of that religion do”? I don’t have a religion, therefore by definition I can only be a “layman”. Are you a cleric? How is that possible, being a woman?
To me, the most important thing is how religion is applied in the real world, not all the warm and fuzzy abstract stuff in the scriptures which bores me to death. Yes, I will judge Islam by what Muslims say and do, whether you like it or not.
Ok, so how does this secular justice system deal with Question #4 (which you still haven’t answered, by the way)?
In order for a system to be truly just, every single wrongful act *must* be accounted for and treated with due justice proportionally.
There is a very basic rule amongst formal religious debates – religion is as good as its scriptures. Anyone who brings what the followers of that religion does is considered a very, very weak argument, and that you pretty much lost the debate. This is well-known amongst scholars or religion intellectualists or specialists.
“To me, the most important thing is how religion is applied in the real world, not all the warm and fuzzy abstract stuff in the scriptures which bores me to death. ”
This is exactly why I love studying about Islam as opposed to studying about Christianity.
Looking forward to reading your answer on Question #4 (asking for the third time now. For some reason – not sure why – it seems like you don’t like answering questions.)
But I’m not a scholar or a religious expert. Are you? I’m just an average Greek guy who isn’t afraid to express his views on religion and politics like most people seem to be these days, terrified that they might be called “racists” or whatever. Do you only converse with religious authorities? What about the remaining 99.9999% of the planet? I honestly have no interest in discussing the virtues of Islam compared to any other belief system. As an agnostic I think all religions are equally off the mark. The only reason I’m “picking on” Islam here is because that is the religion you profess. I do much the same vis-à-vis Christians, with the exception that I think their beliefs are slightly more compatible with being Greek. To put it simply, Christians fought for Greece’s freedom from the Muslim Ottoman Empire, whereas a Muslim would be ostracized from his religion for doing so. I don’t associate with any Jews to do the same to them, but I would given the chance.
I thought the answer to Question 4 was obvious. If someone repeatedly commits criminal acts, eventually the criminal justice system will catch up with him/her.
So, do you admit then that there are some people on planet earth that have committed a wrongful act and didn’t get caught by the secular justice system?
I’m sure there are millions in the past but I’m asking you if there is at least one person in the history of time that *ever* got away with no punishment.
Of course, but how does believing in an omniscient “God” who will punish him in the afterlife help his victims in the here and now? Should we just do away with the criminal justice system altogether and simply rely on “God” to punish people after they die?
BREAKTHROUGH: we actually agree on this point then that the secular judicial system is not perfect.
I am not suggesting that do away with the criminal justice system. I am suggesting that there is a perfect solution out there and here it is:
(Are you ready to be openminded? Let the one who created the heavens and the earth to open your heart to receiving this information below:)
“All that they do is noted in (their) Books (of Deeds). Every matter, small and great, is on record.” (Qur’an, 54:52-53)
“On that Day mankind shall issue in scatterings to see their deeds. Whosoever has done an atom’s weight of good shall see it, and whosoever has done an atom’s weight of evil shall see it.” (Qur’an, 99: 6-8)
This means that we all have a book of our deeds for every single act, good or bad, that we do and it will be shown to us on the Day of Judgement. We will be taken to account for it and rewarded for the good deeds and punished for the bad deeds.
Please note that if we repent for our bad deeds (and there are certain steps to do this, not just feel bad and then commit the act again), then our bad deeds will be erased.
See, there is one more element we need to discuss. When I know that I will be judged heaviliy for every single wrongful act that I do, I will be very, very careful to not commit a wrongful act. And even when I do (because all humans are created to sin), then I will be quick to repent in the proper way so that my bad deed can be erased.
But what about a person who doesn’t believe in this system? He can easily commit many wrongful acts – many criminal acts – without worry because if he doesn’t get caught, there is no punishment on him. Even if he does get caught, he will always weigh the pros and cons (like I mentioned in Question #3).
I know right now this will be very hard for you to accept, but please think objectively here; which judicial system is perfect?
(Don’t let your mind take over what your heart is feeling.)
So why do so many devout Muslims commit so many unspeakable crimes against other human beings? The way I see it, it’s the Muslims especially, followed by the Christians and Jews, who are doing most of the killing and maiming, not the atheists or agnostics. Not to say they didn’t in the past – the Communists and Nazis, for example – but they were squarely defeated and are no longer a threat to humanity.
That’s a valid question. I’m going to give you the short version of the answer.
1. We already established that a religion cannot be based on its followers.
There are many reasons for this. a) God is perfect but humans are designed to sin, so if a person makes a minor or major sin, does that reflect back on God? No. b) I can go on for a long time about other people, like Christians, for example that commit crimes (like Timothy McBay for example or Catholic priests who molest children etc.) but that does not reflect back on Christianity. The only valid proof for what a religion is based on is its scripture.
2. It’s not logical to steretoype 1.5 billion people based on what 10-20 Muslims may (or may not) have done.
This is the same for agnostics and atheists. I can sit here and say all agnostics or atheists are violent, aggressive, rude, vulgar people who have no manners whatsoever and only ask loaded questions that have false statements in them. But I won’t stereotype an entire people based on a few interactions I have had with you or others.
3. Depends on your definition of ‘devout Muslims’.
What’s your definition of ‘devout’? I think we have opposite definitions here. In a nutshell, this is our definition of devout people:
“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted.” (Quran, 49:13)
In the eyes of Muslims, people who commit acts of terror or major criminal acts are not devout Muslims whatsoever. In fact, for many, many years, all scholars and Islamic organizations that I know (and I mean thousands of them) have openly made public statements that they strongly condemn these acts of terror and Islam does not support it whatsoever. Unfortunately, this type of news doesn’t get into mainstream media at all, because as you may know, entire governments have a very big agenda to make Muslims look like terrorists and obviously this piece of news doesn’t fit with their agenda.
So, to tie this back into the perfect justice system we were talking about, everybody will get due justice for their good or wrongful acts proportionally. If they don’t get it in this life, they will surely get it in the hereafter.
Are you convinced yet that it’s obvious there must be One God who created the heavens and the earth?
(Don’t let your mind take over your what your heart is saying.)
“Are you a cleric? How is that possible, being a woman?”
No, I am not a cleric. I am a layman also who strives to learn more and more everyday through critical thinking, studying and observing.
There are thousands, if not millions, of Muslim women like me and many of them know much more than me in religious matters.
However, when it comes to religion, we know the only valid evidence is to go back to revelation of the scriptures.
“God is perfect but humans are designed to sin, so if a person makes a minor or major sin, does that reflect back on God? No.” Oh, but it does. If the people who believe in “God” are so flawed, their beliefs must be too. That’s because for me, “God” exists only in the imagination of those who believe in him. And they’re not doing a very good job of marketing the idea to the rest of us, trust me.
“In the eyes of Muslims, people who commit acts of terror or major criminal acts are not devout Muslims whatsoever.” But the people committing these acts define *themselves* as devout Muslims. No offence, but who are you to tell them they are not? I’ve heard that argument so many times that it’s beginning to sound tedious. “Islam is a religion of peace, the fundamentalists are not real Muslims.” They would argue the opposite. Only they are the real Muslims as they are the ones actively waging jihad and “defending” Islam against the infidels. Why should I believe you over them? Simply put, you have the “tiny minority” of violent Muslims pitted against the peaceful majority. But both strains identify as Muslims.
Yes, you can stereotype agnostics or atheists on the basis of your tense interaction with me if you so choose. But my being “rude” or “vulgar” is hardly comparable to planting a bomb on a train in Madrid, is it? “All scholars and Islamic organizations that I know (and I mean thousands of them) have openly made public statements that they strongly condemn these acts of terror and Islam does not support it whatsoever.” I’m sure I could find just as many quotes from Islamic clerics calling for violence against the infidels. Even Sheikh Ali Gomaa, Grand Mufti of Egypt, widely considered one of the most “moderate” voices in the Islamic world, has said “…it is permitted to kill him, because he is a Harbi and the Harbi spreads corruption throughout the face of the earth.” As a Harbi (non-Muslim living in a non-Muslim country) myself, I can only be alarmed by such declarations.
“Entire governments have a very big agenda to make Muslims look like terrorists and obviously this piece of news doesn’t fit with their agenda.” Are you denying that self-identifying Muslims have carried out these acts of terrorism?
“It’s not logical to steretoype 1.5 billion people based on what 10-20 Muslims may (or may not) have done.” You’re kidding, right? At least that many carry out bombings every *day* in Iraq. So even if only 1% of 1 billion Muslims espouse Islamic fundamentalism, that’s still a heck of a lot of fanatics (10 million, to be precise). I’m sure the real percentage is significantly higher. As much as I despise them, you don’t see Christian fundamentalists blowing themselves up very often. Which leads to the question, what is it about Islam that leads so many of its followers to fanaticism and violence? Please understand that I’m not calling all Muslims extremists or terrorists. But many Muslims are, and I have every right to ask why.
And no, I’m not even remotely convinced that it is “obvious there must be One God who created the heavens and the earth”, I’m afraid. Are you trying to convert me?
Now, you have come to the point where you are trying to define what a Muslim is and what a devout Muslim is.
Until you realize that a religion is based on scripture, and not its followers, you will remain in a blunder of confusion as you have proved in your last post.
I am not trying to offend you; it’s just a fact.
As for us, it’s very, very clear because the one who created the heavens and earth has explicity given us the definition of a Muslim and the definition of a devout Muslim and this is what we use. It’s common knowledge amongst Muslims.
No, I am not trying to convert you since as you know the verse in the Qur’an that says, “There is no compulsion in religion.” My job is to convey the message to you and I feel that I have.
Beyond this, I feel it’s a waste of time to enter your blunder of confusion and go on and on without any results.
We listen and obey to our Creator, the creator of the heavens and the earth because we worship Him alone. If you choose to listen and obey your ownself whenever you feel like it because you worship yourself, than that’s up to you.
But, when we all meet the creator of the heavens and the earth on the Day of Judgement, bear witness that we are Muslims and that we have conveyed the message to you. You will have no excuse at that point and you will highly regret what you are saying.
Goodbye Macedonian.
(If you would like me to answer your other quesitons you asked me at the beginning about Islam or the one about hijab, well I said I would so I have to follow up with my word. I see it pointless to answer them since it makes no difference to you but if you are still interested, let me know.)
Selam alaykoum Greekmuslim
Καλή απάντηση αδελφέ!!
συνεχής. η πίστη σου με κάνει ευχαρίστηση!
Selam
Vallahi….it is a really beautiful response.
Salaam
Wow!! it is amazing how Islam tunes the brain to the same wavelength. You are a recent Greek revert, and i born into islam, yet you feel the Ummah as I, and reply as would have I.
May Allah(SWT) succeed you in the hereafter.
Masha’Allah… Nice answers, though lengthy… Perhaps one option you can add in the future if most questions like these come in would be online webcasts for the worldwide greek community – so much easier to explain directly, right?
Salam aleykum wa rahmatullah.
Hey…I think you just skipped my comment. It was in between the comment of Greekyacine and Hayrullah. By the way congratulations for officially opening the site, and may Allah reward you for your effort, insha Allah.
Oooh, now that’s an idea. It would save loads of time.
Nice to see you here Megan.
Since this dialogue is finished, I’d like to say something last to Macedonian. Why, if you judge a religion by it’s followers, don’t you take us here and now as examples? What’s wrong with us? Why is it always the maniacs that someone takes as the representatives of a religion? And, well, some of those “terrorists” (like those *defending* Palestine), how in God’s name can you call them terrorists? I mean, seriously…what’s wrong with you people, don’t you see them being killed everyday by Israeli soldiers? I want you to think very deeply, and tell me who at end, are the terrorists? And be honest!
And another thing. How is it that our law tells us to kill you, when you are the future Muslim (hypothetically)? I mean, we can’t force you into becoming Muslim, so the only way is talking to you, so if we kill you, we can’t spread the word to you, as simple as that.
I want to comment on Greeks Who Convert to ISLAM. Yes we are GREEKS!!! Not Turks!. So please fellow Greeks who are Orthodox Christian, don’t say we have become Turks because we embrace Islam.
We are not changing our ethnicity ,only our way of believing in and serving GOD. Not all Turks are Muslim.
Eleni, welcome to the group. I’m wondering if you are the same Eleni from the UK that we know. It would be great if you can introduce yourself on our forums (www.greeksrethink.com/forum).
I can relate to your message. It’s like this knee-jerk reaction that we always have to say this right after we tell Greeks we are Muslims. Good point, not all Turks are Muslim.
Selam Eleni.
that’s rignt. I’am entirely agree with you!
I am Greek but Greek muslim with greek tradition, speaking, ancestors AND I am following The Islamic Creed
Salam to all. To ImanK, no I am not that Eleni. I am from USA.
To Greekyacine, exactly, I love my Greek culture and anything that conflicts with Islam I don’t do it. Take the good and leave the bad. And I love our language. As the whole world knows ancient Greek culture has contributed greatly. We cannot dismiss that.
asalamu alaikum (peace be upon you) Imank!
Firstly: mashallah thats a beautiful story. I actually had a similar experience, my story can be found here:
http://www.greeksrethink.com/2008/10/greek-convert-story-yianni-from-australia/
My lebanese friend who guided me to islam, when i first discovered he was a muslim i too tried to challenge him with my Greek orthodox faith, however everytime, islam would always win, Islam is clear and has proof in everything that it teaches unlike all the other religions that exists.
Also the moment that i accepted (in my heart) that there is only one god and that islam is the final and true teachings of god, i too had this feeling, of peace in heart, and the moment i did my shahada i had that feeling again!
SECONDLY: to any person who needs proof that islam is the true teaching of god, check out this web site:
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/index2.html
and also go on youtube and type “miracles of quran”
Thirdly: to “macedonian” and any other people who are curious or have questions regarding islam; Greetings !
its understandable that your probably reading this with a negative view of religion, which is understandable considering that the media has probably had a big influence on you and your only source of information is only what you hear from the tv, friend or radio. i understand this because i too was once very uninformed and my only source of information was the media.
here’s some tips when pondering on the concept of god/religion:
1. when researching or thinking about the concept of god have an objective perspective, put aside what you currently think and pretend that you know nothing about religion.
2. what do you really know about islam or god? im not talking about what you saw on tv or what a friend told you, but what information do you know from reading books written by respected scholars or actually asking an islamic scholar yourself?
3. is your judgement of religion based on your actual findings or just what you’ve herd?
4. think, am i an intelligent individual who makes decisions based on their own education and wise judgement? or am i just an ignorant person who just follows what they hear?
5. have i read the quran? have i read the biography and teachings of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)? have i read books from respected scholars? do i have the right to make a judgement?
just ponder on these ideas and god willing i hope you learn the truth, find guidance in life and make a wise judgement based on your own findings.
Peace be upon you all!
In that case, Eleni, welcome to our website.
Please join us at our forum: http://www.greeksrethink.com/forum. there is actually an interesting discussion going on about that on our forums right now.
Hey, interesting discussion.
I was amazed at how Macedonian has expressed exactly my feelings.
And, no, his remarks were not sufficiently addressed. Too bad that ImanK, at some moment, simply abandoned the discussion.
I am not Greek, but I can see how being Muslim poses particular challenges for a Greek person.
It’s all about identity, and how you construct your own identity….
But all this discussion about “proof” for Islam is, IMHO, absurd.
There is no clear “proof” in matters of religion: there is faith. You either have it, or not.
If there was clear “proof,” we would all be of the same religion.
ievgenij, thanks for your feedback. This thread was stopped because we were digressing from the topic plus it was infringing on our acceptable use policy.
We are free to discuss further if we can do so in a respectful way.
We are the only religion that relies on BOTH faith AND proof fully.
Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a Greek convert to Islam from the U.K., recently had a debate regarding the existence of God. I think it’s relevent to some of the contentions brought up by “Macedonian” so here it is: http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2008/10/video-does-god-exist-debate-with.html.
You are all missing the point people, every group of people interperts God from their traditional background. If you want to educate yourselves start with the book a Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. Just because you don’t feel fulfilled in your own religious up bringing, doesn’t mean that jumping ship to another religion will make you understand God any better. I see this all the time with first year university students who learn a little bit about a different faith and wow they experience a spiritural awakening! To them everyone else in their community is too stupid to understand their bliss. Now its time to convert all the non-believers. What do some of your posts state, Greeks aren’t following the Orthodox Church as much they are moving to Paganism!?! This must be great news for you, now you can bring them over to your new found faith. Give me a break. Here’s my advise, educate yourself in history and anthropology. Instaed of just reading sacred text, learn about how civilizations are formed, learn about universal architypes, learn how the majority of what constitutes religion is based on historical local ritural tradition. And lets be honest the Islamic religion is not tolerant and some of its followers lately have done terrible things. Some Followers of Islam even believe that their martyrs will all go to heaven with their 72 virgins. Is this logical or absurd? You can believe in this nonsense yet reject Christ’s teachings? How sad. Furthermore lets not forget what the Turkish Ottaman Musleums did to Greece. How many Greeks died for Greece to be liberated, for our freedom? Come on, wake up, we are Greeks, we gave birth to philosophy, do not abandon your reason to take up the cause of Arabs and Turks. Try to be proud of what our civilizartion has done including our Orthodox Church. In fact you should get down on your hands and knees and thank God if you are a member of the Orthodox Church which kept our culture alive during dark times.
Remember, Ως πότε παλικάρια να ζούμε στα στενά…. Καλλιώναι μίας ώρας ελεύθερη ζωή παρά σαράντα χρόνια σκλαβιά και φυλακή
To: “Sonofsparta”
Im not a religious expert and my mental capacity is limited to what Allah has given me, but judging by your comment, id say your comment is based on opinion rather than fact. You make out as if us reverts/converts just decided to convert without much thought or contemplation. I cant speak for anyone else but I personally spent over 6 months researching islam before i converted. Now im not saying that your not entitled to an opinion, but if your going to go around challenging people and their faith, i suggest you get some solid facts.
Also Allah, or “god” as you may call him, in the quran challenges mankind:
Allah said:
“Or do they say: ‘He (Muhammad) has forged it? “ Say: bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!” (Quran 10:38)
So if you or any other orthodox christian thinks that they are better than islam, then take this challenge, produce a chapter like the quran if orthdox christianity is the true word of god.
Son Of Sparta
You sound very confused. You suggest that we undertake the study of a secular science such as anthropology and then tell us to get ‘ down on your hands and knees and thank God if you are a member of the Orthodox Church which kept our culture alive during dark times’. Why the contradicting advice?
Since when did Anthropology, History, Joseph Campbell or you have all the answers. You claim that as Muslims we reject Christ’s teachings, all muslims would take great offence to such a statement. You are either a liar or just simply ignorant. I trust that your intentions are good so you must be ignorant.
Judging a religion by a few of it’s followers is not a very smart thing to do. How many people were killed by the Orthodox Serbs in the massacre of Srbrenica? How many Chechnyan civilisans have been killed by the Orthodox Russians?
You sound just like a hippy first year uni student who after completing Anthropology 101 and Philosophy 101 starts to question the world around them (with or without the use of weed or LSD). Then after seeing all the atrocoties in the World concludes that religion is false because if God was true then innocent people wouldn’t get killed. Son of Sparta, if you want to start making such statement then be prepared to defend your allegations with evidence. Don’t get into discussions that simply amplifies your ignorance.
Please be reminded of our acceptable use policy while discussing.
http://www.greeksrethink.com/about/our-project/acceptable-use-policy/
” You claim that as Muslims we reject Christ’s teachings, all muslims would take great offence to such a statement. You are either a liar or just simply ignorant. I trust that your intentions are good so you must be ignorant”
Christians believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of GOD. He is part of the Holy Trinity. He was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead 3 days later.
Do Musleum believe this? No, they think he is a prophet and do not recoginize him as being GOD.
If you do not believe in the resurection and that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ, then you reject his teaching. There, can you understand that statement?
Putting aside individual religious belief systems we were born into, and looking at archaeological evidence we find universal symbols and architypes in the way in which ancient people worshiped God or the gods. We find these same symbols and architypes in the main religions that people worship today.
Getting down on your hand and knees is an expression. What I mean by that statement is although no religion has a monopoly on the truth, the Orthodox Church is the fabric of the Greek people. It’s teachings and philosophy follow closely ancient Greek ideals put forth by philosophers such as Plato. The Islamic tradition/religion is Eastern based, and is not in keeping with ancient Greek ideals. If the Ottaman Turks succeded, then Arabaic culture and Islamic culture would have destroyed us as a people. Look at what 400 years of enslavemen did to us, the destruction of Churches, the destruction of Pagan art forms, the systematic head tax, the cutting off of relations with Western Europe, we missed out on a lot of European movements because we were enslaved by the Ottomans. Islam is submission, and we Greeks aren’t ones to submit to a foreign concept of God that is not in keeping with our philosophy.
You can call me all the names you want, Abu Abdullah Azzam, but that would not change the fact that you and I are looking at the concept of God from different prisms.
In terms of Islam, my beef isn’t with scriptures or religious tradition its just mostly political. Since Ottaman Islamic occupation has damaged Greeks psychologically we do not trust Musleums. It’s that simple. If on the other hand Hagia Sophia and the Orthodox Churches in Turkey were free to operate once agian, then Greeks won’t have a problem with offical Mosques in Greece.
‘Christians believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of GOD. He is part of the Holy Trinity. He was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead 3 days later’
Yes you are 100% correct, this is the belief of the Church. However this is not what Jesus taught. Jesus never taught the Pagan Concept of Trinitiy. He submitted to his Lord, in the arabic language Allah. Jesus never taught his followers that to belive in his divintiy is the way to Salvation. Jesus taught his followers to follow the Law (although with a strong element of forgiveness).
Muslims do not reject the teachings of Christ. I would say we follow his teachings more than the so called Christians. We follow the way & the religion of Jesus, not St Paul. Now tell me what is it about Plato’s writings that make you think that his way is superior to all.
If you have a problem with the Turks due to the Ottoman empires then that is your problem that you are going to have to deal with. I know that my ancestors were not enslaved, they were free to worship as they liked and to speak their own language. No Ottoman barred them from that. When the Greece became an Ottoman colony (like the Canada became a British Colony) the citiens had to submit to the laws of the new colonial government. Why do Canadians live by the laws of the British & French and not that of the Indigenous people?
What is your answer to that? ‘We give them land and handouts?’ That is the same type of ‘enslavement’ that Greece was under.
I know the Jews are not fans of St Paul but I am unaware of the Muselum position. Could it be because Paul pressed so hard to have Christianity accepted by whom the Jews call the gentiles who were not part of the choosen people? Well I am not going to get into a theological debate concerning your next statement,
“Yes you are 100% correct, this is the belief of the Church. However this is not what Jesus taught. Jesus never taught the Pagan Concept of Trinitiy. He submitted to his Lord, in the arabic language Allah. Jesus never taught his followers that to belive in his divintiy is the way to Salvation. Jesus taught his followers to follow the Law (although with a strong element of forgiveness).”
First off I am not a scholar of religion, nor am I deeply interested into expaining verses of holy scripture. All I an tell you is this is what Orthodox Christians believe. Yes their is paganism in Christianity, but it exists in many religions including Islam and I can get into more detail a little later. In regards to the Law, this is where Christanity differs from Judiaism ( I can’t comment on Islam because I don’t know your belief system). The Jews believe in the Torah and the Law. Christ through his parables angers the Jews because he tells them the laws are not important whats more important is how one acts, I will give you an example,
The Pharisees were totally convinced that their laws (both written and oral) and religious observances were correct. The idea of the Messiah breaking these laws was unthinkable to them. Throughout His ministry, Jesus violated many of their oral laws. He mixed freely with tax collectors and sinners, making Him ceremonially unclean (Luke 7:39). He ate and drank with them, and was called a glutton and a drunkard (Luke 7:34). He ate with ceremonially unclean hands (Luke 11:38). He broke their Sabbath laws by healing people, and gleaning corn to eat (Luke 13:14, Matthew 12:1-2). He forgave peoples’ sins, which to the Pharisees was blasphemy (Luke 5:21). He also freely criticised the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and self righteousness (Luke 11:37-52).
In the Pharisees’ eyes, Jesus was guilty of law breaking and blasphemy. The idea of Jesus criticising them was an outrage (Luke 6:11). They also saw Him as a threat both to their popularity and their authority over the people (Luke 13:17). Because of this they plotted to kill Him.
My point, Christ brought a new message to the Jews which was not based on their old laws. Now again I am not a scholar, but I heard this explanation many times.
“Now tell me what is it about Plato’s writings that make you think that his way is superior to all.”
Basically all Christian theological scholars (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) believe that the early Church was heavily inluenced by Plato’s writing. Evenn many Orthodox Greeks who attend church are unaware of the siginificant impact. In places like Mystra and other old Byzantine Churches imagems of Plato and Socrates are depicted as icons on walls. Why? Well the answer is not to difficult, Socrates lead a very moral life as you know condemded to death he made the ultimate sacrifice for the good of society and to teach people a lesson in a higher moral manner. This story and other works by Plato was read and taught in theological schools throught Europe. The philosophy of Plato influenced even some Latin Catholic Scholars of theology like St. Augustine. So this is why I remarked the Greek Orthodox Church is closely following ancient Greek ideals put forth by philosophers such as Plato. Because the monastaries had libraries many ancient texts were accessed by theologians who inturn influenced the Church. In terms of why Plato is superior, let me put it to you this way, every university on earth has philosophical departments and Plato’s teachings are the most important of all philosophical texts.
In terms of the Ottomans I have explained several times over what they did, you don’t believe me or the history as 98% of the Greek people see it, well there’s nothing more I can tell you.
PS In terms of Paganism in Islam here’s two quick example, the dietary laws, they predate even Judaism, ancient people in the middle east and Greece all practised a type of fasting. Next the Crescent symbol on top of Mosques and flags, this an old pagan symbol from Byzantium.
Son of Sparta
My argument with on this particular thread pertains to your comment about Muslims rejecting the teachings of Christ and calling our beliefs absurd, not on the beliefs espoused by the Church. I also am no biblical scholar but since you quoted the bible, allow me to share Matthew 5: 17-20. With regards to the Law and Pharisees, this is what is attributed to Jesus……
‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven’.
As such Jesus was a great religious reformer, the messiah, not the leader or god of a new religion. With regards to Jesus’ alleged Divinity this what Jesus say: “…the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
Peter said about Jesus: “God raised up his servant…” (Acts 3:26)
Peter also declared: “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.” (Acts 3:13).
When asked ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’ ‘The most important one,’ Jesus replied, ‘is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’(Mark 12:28-30).
‘PS In terms of Paganism in Islam here’s two quick example, the dietary laws, they predate even Judaism, ancient people in the middle east and Greece all practised a type of fasting. Next the Crescent symbol on top of Mosques and flags, this an old pagan symbol from Byzantium. ‘
The Crescent symbol is not an Islamic symbol and does not depict Islam in any way. It was never used by our Prophet or any of his illustrious companions. It appears that the Ottoman Turks were the first Muslims to adopt the symbol on their flag, over one thousand years after the establishment of the first Islamic State. Such a symbol is not used in worship (unlike icons) and does not even get any mention in any of our religious texts. There is absolutely no Paganism in Islam and I challenge you to find any Paganism in our beliefs or worship. With regards to fasting, all prophets of God fasted, all of Gods prophets were strict monotheist and we are simply following a religious commandment. Not one community has ever fasted like the Muslims, not the Christians, Jews or Hindus. Muslims are unique in the way they fast and do resemble or imitate any other nation or community.
With regards to Plato, I agree that his teachings were influential in Church history, but I fail to see how that made him or the Church’s teachings superior. The Church was responsible for limiting Science as Science and religion were considered incompatible.
Most Sociological Depts. study Weber. Does that make him superior? No.
Most psychology Depts. study Freud, does that make his teachings superior? I don’t know about you but I certainly have no desire for any incestuous relationships.
Most anthropology and biology Depts study Darwin. Does that make him superior? Again, I don’t know about you but my ancestors were note apes.
Now, the Church and the Clergy were responsible for taking Europe into the Dark ages. During this period Islam flourished and places such as Baghdad were great centres of learning where Jews, Christians and Muslims academics and scientist could continue their work in progressing humanity without fear of the Church authorities.
Here are a few of my thoughts,
I don’t have a lot of time today so I cannot fully answer you in regards to Muslim vs Christians view on Christ, I will give you one quick reference and try to answer that in a later date.
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)
“With regards to Plato, I agree that his teachings were influential in Church history, but I fail to see how that made him or the Church’s teachings superior. ”
Plato had a great sense of morality in his writings that the Church leaders were aware of and in turn influenced their theology. One of his many concepts deals with the allegory of the cave and illutrates in a brilliant way how people’s view of the world depends on their perspectives and awareness of realm of reality. Now having said that the Church is a big institution and with many divisions, but because these works were preserved and taught at various times it lead to different movements in the West including of course, the Renaissance.
“The Church was responsible for limiting Science as Science and religion were considered incompatible.”
Yes and no. Certainly in the West the Church leadership was skeptical of science that challenged the middle ages misconceptions of the world. In fact many argue the fall of Constantinople which brought Greek artisans fleeing the city to Italy along with ancient texts gave rise to the Renaissance. It is also true that the Arabs had translated Aristotle and other works and brought this knowledge into the West. yet this circulation was more limited in its size.
Now more importantly in regards to paganism. Look I understand you think I wish to offend you. I truly don’t, otherwise I wouldn’t take part in a dialogue. Let me say this observation applies to all the present day great faiths, Judasim, Christianity and Islam in different degrees. I come to this conclusion by examining ancient peoples myths/religions, art and architecture and text. I will first give you an Orthodox reference, at Corinth there were shrines to Asklepion, the healing god. Ancient people made ceramic images of human anatomy and offered it to the god’s shrine as a token of what physically hurts them in hopes of being cured. In the Greek Orthodox tradition, mainly in Greece not so much in other Orthodox nations to the north, some devout people give a “tagma” in the Church icon shrine, (in this case a flat image usually made of silver depicting a part of human anatomy), in hopes of being cured and pray to be healed. There are many things in the Church that are culturally based, going back thousands of years. Ancient Greek temples like churches are aligned East to West. Early Churches were built on Roman basilica designs. Why? Roman basilicas were ancient courts with an Apse at one end and a chair where the judge would sit, the Christians wanted to show the Roman Pagans that their religion was based on justice, so they incorporated this pagan design of the court house. If you look at art you immediately see the connection.
I gave you the example of the Crescent, but there is more. Sacred stones were common to pagans, my limited understanding is that sacred stones exist in Islamic culture? In the Phoenician mythology related by Sanchuniathon, one of the sons of Uranus was named Baetylus. The worship of baetyli was widespread in the Phoenician colonies. The concept of pilgrimage also existed in pagan times ie. Pilgrimage had been performed to certain temples of the moon gods in ancient Arabia. The Blue Mosque in Turkey is an architectural copy of the Christan cathedral of Hagia Sophia which in turn was influenced by Roman pagan architecture. You see my point, humanity builds on the past including religions, so the art, architecture and customs are a variation of the past. And yes I am sure you are correct to say, “Not one community has ever fasted like the Muslims, not the Christians, Jews or Hindus. Muslims are unique in the way they fast,” however that does not mean that ancient people did not fast, and perhaps their traditions influenced the later great faiths. Food for thought.
salam my sister i too live in canada and am a greek convert to islam im looking for greek sisters feel free to write to me via email
Wa alaikum assalaam Asmae! Welcome to our website. It’s so nice to see other Greek Muslims from Canada, especially Montreal.
Please join us at our forum to meet other Greek Muslims from around the world: http://www.greeksrethink.com/forum.
How long have you been Muslim? Are there more in Montreal?
I think you guys are a bit strange. Your ancestors fought to liberate us from the Muslim oppressor yet you now chose this religion 200 years later. Having muslim friends who obviously wish to convert me, one thing I could not understand and that is why you cannot eat pork. Never understood why??? Always the same old thing, eating pork is wrong, It is dirty. Yet half the things we consume today are dirty with all those chemicals added to them. Cancers are on the rise in case you haven’t seen.
One other thing is, which God would let you starve to death during a month in the daytime and then at night time you can eat like a pig and make love to four different woman!!! No offense, I love that however it is called cheating and wrong. As all countries say it even muslim ones, polygamy is wrong. Even in the 10 commandments, things such as cheating are condemned meaning you only have one partner. Also, if you were stuck in the woods and had nothing to eat I am sure you would eat the first pig you saw.
No offense guys, but we need to start thinking that religion is archaic. On top of that, you don’t need religion to tell you that alcohol is wrong. I mean that is poison to humans. Drink pure alcohol and your brain cells die. Another thing it is not up to the woman to veil herself so that other guys don’t fixate on her. It is up to us guys to conduct ourselves in a orderly manner. I for once like watching women showcasing their bodies. It makes me happy!!!! Some people would call this exploitation yet what Islam says is not??? I know muslim guys who do all the religion says and yet they go around sleeping around. Yet they claim to be muslim. Very ironic don’t you think???
I am not trying to say that Christianity is right, however it would of been right if we people followed the words of Jesus himself and not those of the priests. Religion is a human invention, not from God himself. Islam was initiated by Mohamed to let his lost Jewish brothers to find Yahve again seeing that they lost their ways. It was not meant for you of Greek culture to adopt a Arabic culture. We lived it and our ancestors were slained to death to give us back our liberty. Mohamed saw the Christian getting violent while drinking and Christians doing awful things at those times and abolished many things in his religion such as alcohol and others.
Your ignorance sadly has let you in a trap of mass conversion initiated by our lovely neighbors who live in the Middle East. They do not wish to help you but convert you so their imams can live off you just like our priests. But, I guess I am wrong and you are right. As you say Allah will judge me when my time comes. Geez!!!
One other thing, I would wish for you guys to stop talking that we you know it all. God is a metaphysical element which we would never see nor experience. If he actually exists is another question that cannot be answered. We have three abramaic religions that claim to be true religion. Wars have happened and innocent people have died for God/Allah/Yahve. No one can claim he knows the true answer since God as kindly as he is would of prevented such wars in honor of his name. Unless, he himself is not so kindly. Everyday new religions are born. We call them sects. That was how Christianity and Islam were born. Needless to say, anyone can write anything and pass it as legitimate nowadays. Imagine back then.
Therefore, it is up for you young people to get educated, find a job and stop spending your parents money by sitting all around claiming stupidities. A country with Sharia Law is no country but a theocratic tyranny. Not saying that the Western word does not have its share of problems however it is not to anyone to tell me what or what to not do. Eating pig, drinking alcohol, not eating halal is my right!!! It does not hurt anyone but me if it is bad.
So please stop trying to pass on the message of the Prophet. Buddhism has also amazing things in it. I wish you could all go read it a bit.
This site has been created solely to “connect” us Greeks who have converted to Islam, not per se for propagation (and we don’t want to convert you or anyone, though, if you or anyone wants to have conversation with us, we have no problem with that and it is our pleasure to discuss whatever). Of course you have every right to eat pork and drink alcohol and do whatever you like, we never said you don’t have these rights, but that gives us the right to be Muslims and not eat pork, not drink alcohol etc. as well, so it goes both ways. In case you are confused or something, it is mostly by self-education, and by having the opportunity to learn multiple mentalities (most of us are from all around the world, Greek immigrants, Greek students, etc.), by Rethinking, and Rethinking, until we came to this conclusion, that indeed there is no deity except God/Allah/YHWH/Vishnu or whatever name/word you might call God by.
The Imams have no such authority as the priests of Christianity, though the Ulema does (scholars of Islamic law) (at least to the point that they can make fatwas (legal positions, like forbidding something or permitting something, but that again only if they can argue their thesis with the Qur’an and Islamic traditions (sunnah))) and if you take a close look at truly educated Muslims, you will see that they are mostly against the Ulema, saying that they don’t do their job well enough, and in fact most Muslims who know the true essence of Islam say the same.
About Buddhism, and other religions, yes, I agree that there is amazing information and wisdom to gain by studying them, and I think that Muslims should do so as they did in the past (study them), as the Qur’an keeps repeating about the various prophets that were sent throughout the ages to all different peoples. This should make clear to us Muslims that at least most religions originate from the same source, which obviously is God, and that Islam is not “the only true religion”, but rather a continuation (or rather last part of the puzzle) of the history of God’s religion for mankind. I disagree with you that we would never experience God, and I’d say, perhaps we can’t experience God in His whole (which in the context of God’s infinity is, simply put, impossible), but we sure can come to God-consciousness, and recognition that He indeed is The Creator of all and that there is no deity except Him.
Anyway, I hope you get more interested in religions as a whole, and start making some sense out of them, and see the interconnection. This is your birthright and obligation in a sense, not obligation towards anyone else, but your own self.
Ειρήνη σοι.
Br. Amir, I wouldn’t waste my time. Greek Guy’s comment stems out of complete ignorance of what Islam really is. It’s the typical atheist answer. He looks at his Muslim friends and thinks that’s Islam. And he takes microscopic issues, mixes them with non-Muslim society, and then presents it to us as if that’s Islam. If he really wants to know what Islam is, he should understand that the one who created the heavens and the earth is the one we take our wisdom from, not some random dude who calls himself “Greek Guy”.
I am not an atheist. I am a Orthodox Christian who believes that my ancestors died to protect the greek culture based on the principles of Jesus from the conquering muslim Turks and you guys dream about filling our little country with mosques again. I am concerned that is all.
Again, you fail to answer to my questions. What is wrong with eating pork. What is wrong with a little alcohol???? Which God starves you to death all day and let’s you go do anything at night for a month. You think these things will make you a better person??? You can’t be serious.
‘Οταν οι “Ελληνες φεύγαν για ξένες πατρίδες δεν ζητούσαν να τους κάνουν εκκλησίες. Μόνοι φτιάχναν τέτοιες εκκλησίες. Εσείς ζητάτε τόπους πληρομένει απο το Δημόσιο. Γιατί???? Εαν θέλετε τζαμειά φτιάχτετα μόνοι σας. Οι προγόνοι σας υποφέραν κάτο απο τους Μουσουλμάνους. Ο Mohamed δεν ήταν προφίτης. ¨Εκανε πολέμους. Η Μεκκα κατακτήθικε. Ο Χρηστός δεν κατέκτισε κανένα. Αυτά λένε πολλά. Ο Χρηστός δεν είναι θεός. Αύτα τα κάναν οι ανθρώποι με την Χαλκηδόνα το 453 στην σημερινή Τυνισία και χωρίσαν οι Κόπτες. Σήμερα έχει μια θεική φύση και μια ανθρώπινη. Πουθενά δεν μιλά για δεύτερο θεό.
Στο χριστιανισμό δεν χρειάζονται οι παππάδες ουτε. Υπάρχει η μοναστική ζωή.
Because I think most of you won’t be able to read in Greek I will continue in English. Tell me what Islam has that Christianity does not offer. Deep down your islam was made to correct my flaws which in my opinion I consider that your thinking is irrational. The pork eating, halal, not drinking alcohol, wearing clothes that are quite archaic to today, makes Muslims a backward society and frankly these are the reasons which alienate you from Christianity, Yes you claim Jesus was a prophet, not the son of God, yet who was his father. Joseph???? Don’t you see the Jewish religion is more similar to yours. They are your brothers not Christians. Jesus came to get rid of these restrictions that are quite irrational.
Praying 5 times a day!!!! Yet after you do all sins just like Christians. And to all you converts who have drank and eaten pork, how are you model muslims. You commented sins before. You will not see your paradise.
Choosing Islam is your right however it is not right to convert people who have not discovered Christianity on their own born in Christian households. Orthodox Christianity is quite good and you guys never tried to learn about it. It is quite sad. It is also a huge problem when you force a secular country of Christian values to adopt to your rules because you wish to be different. It is not up to us to adopt to you but you must adopt to our ways just like I must adopt to the laws of Iran or Saudi Arabia for say. What do you gain by leaving your Greek culture and adopting a Arabic culture????
You do not wish to converse with me because you have no possible answers to my questions. You pray in Arabic, not Greek that I truly find my true path yet you change your name to Arabic and claim to still be Greek. You are so wrong. When your name is not Greek no more what is left. Greece is a proud country with its own rich history. It certainly does not need to adopt a culture passed on to different races through war and
veils their women because men cannot behave. Time to address the following issues.
Hello Greek Guy. Let me give you an analogy. Let’s say you want to win a olympic medal in tennis. So you finally get 10 minutes with Serena Williams to ask her for advice, but instead of asking questions about powerful serving techniques or back hands, you ask her questions like, what’s the best outfit to wear at the match and how to look good in photos in Time Magazine. Then, you demand that she answer your questions because if she doesn’t, you will say, you are not answering my questions because aha, you really don’t know anything about tennis. What do you think she will do?
The same goes for your comment above. If you really want to know about Islam, instead of coming here and making a lot of (false) assumptions of who we are and what we do and asking microscopic questions in Islam that have little value and then demanding that we answer you because if we don’t, then we really have no answers for you, why don’t you just come out and say, hey, please tell me what Islam is about and why you converted. I really don’t understand why.
This would have been much easier.
“I am not an atheist. I am a Orthodox Christian who believes that my ancestors died to protect the greek culture based on the principles of Jesus from the conquering muslim Turks and you guys dream about filling our little country with mosques again. I am concerned that is all.”
I don’t know what you think, but I’m sure that our ancestors fought and died for their freedom, not to preserve anything. Like we are taught in school, we were enslaved and we revolted, as simple as that. And I am bored to death by repeating the historical fact that also Muslims (amongst our ancestors) fought by side of our Orthodox ancestors in the struggle for freedom.
“Again, you fail to answer to my questions. What is wrong with eating pork. What is wrong with a little alcohol???? Which God starves you to death all day and let’s you go do anything at night for a month. You think these things will make you a better person??? You can’t be serious.”
What is wrong with pork meat, 1. it is unhealthy (look at your heart attack rates etc. it is because of your meat consumption) because when a pig is being slaughtered, it generates toxins and stuff, and fats and whatever, and in the end, the DNA of the pig is very similar to the human DNA (look at all the transplantation of pig organs etc., their whole body structure even is very similar to the human one (the organs etc.)), I sure wouldn’t want to eat a human, and neither would I eat pork, and I really don’t understand why this is such a problem for you, I mean, you have all the right in the world to eat as much pork as you like, your problem. 2. Alcohol, same o’ thing, any intoxicating substances are unhealthy and thus in Islam prohibited to use them. Though, if there really is nothing else to eat (no other kinds of food), and there is only pork (and I mean really nothing), then it is ok to eat pork, but I guess such circumstances are almost impossible. If you knew the essence of Islam as a whole and Ramadan fasting in particular, you would know that it is άσκησις, like the Orthodox monks do, it is a month that we keep God in our mind, try to do charity and good deeds, and remember those who are all year like this (in poverty, not having any food), and this is a way to imprint all these values and virtues, that we have to keep up to the month of Ramadan, and to remember the whole year to come, to be generous again, and gentle, and kind, and God-conscious etc.
It is not so that you can do anything after the fast is over, and it is suggested by the Qur’an that we pray at night (the 10 last days of Ramadan) and generally keep ourselves pure the whole month from beginning to end.
“‘Οταν οι “Ελληνες φεύγαν για ξένες πατρίδες δεν ζητούσαν να τους κάνουν εκκλησίες. Μόνοι φτιάχναν τέτοιες εκκλησίες. Εσείς ζητάτε τόπους πληρομένει απο το Δημόσιο. Γιατί???? Εαν θέλετε τζαμειά φτιάχτετα μόνοι σας. Οι προγόνοι σας υποφέραν κάτο απο τους Μουσουλμάνους. Ο Mohamed δεν ήταν προφίτης. ¨Εκανε πολέμους. Η Μεκκα κατακτήθικε. Ο Χρηστός δεν κατέκτισε κανένα. Αυτά λένε πολλά. Ο Χρηστός δεν είναι θεός. Αύτα τα κάναν οι ανθρώποι με την Χαλκηδόνα το 453 στην σημερινή Τυνισία και χωρίσαν οι Κόπτες. Σήμερα έχει μια θεική φύση και μια ανθρώπινη. Πουθενά δεν μιλά για δεύτερο θεό.”
Κοίταξε να σου πώ, θα σου δώσω δύο επιλογές, και να μου πείς με ποιά συμφωνείς περισσότερο. Οι επιλογές είναι, 1. να φτιάξουμε δικά μας τζαμιά (υπάρχουν ήδη αρκετά ανεπίσημα, μεσα σε υπόγεια γκαράζ, αποθήκες κλπ.), 2. να υπάρχει ένα επίσημο τζαμί που θα το ελέγχει η κυβέρνηση και ο Ελληνικός λαός. Ρε ‘συ, αφού δεν μας εμπιστεύεσαι; Νομίζεις θέλουμε οι μουσουλμάνοι να σου κατακτήσουμε την (επίσης δικιά μας πατρίδα) Ελλάδα, οπότε για να έχεις κι εσύ το κεφάλι σου ήσυχο, δεν είναι πολύ λογικότερο αυτό που ζητάμε; Απο την άλλη, αν φτιάχναμε όλοι το δικό μας τζαμί, η Ελλάδα θα γεμίσει τζαμιά πολύ πιο γρήγορα. Αν πράγματι αυτό σε ανησυχεί, τότε η επιλογή 2. λογικά είναι αυτό που θα επέλεγες, κάνω λάθος;
Οι πρόγονοί μας υποφέρανε απο τους Χριστιανούς προτήτερα, για πήγαινε δες τι απέγινε ο αρχαιοελληνισμός και ποιός ευθύνεται για την καταστροφή του. Όμως, όταν ο έλληνας είναι χριστιανός, όοοοοοοοοοοοοοχι, δεν είναι προδότης των προγόνων του, μόνο όταν είναι μουσουλμάνος. Μάλιστα, στον Ελλαδικό χόρο, αφού ήρθαν οι Χριστιανοί, εξαφανίστηκε παντελώς ο αρχαιοελληνισμός (απο άποψη αριθμού ατόμων που είχαν αυτή την παράδοση) και καταστράφηκαν ναοί σχολές και γνώσεις. Κι αφού διώξαμε τους Οθωμανούς όμως απο την Ελλάδα, οι Χριστιανοί ακόμα εκεί ήταν, και σε μεγάλους αριθμούς, οπότε η τελική καταστροφή που έκανε ο Χριστιανισμός στην Ελλάδα ποσοτικά είναι μικρότερη απο την καταστροφή που προκάλεσαν οι μουσουλμάνοι. Έχουμε ίσο δικαίωμα να είμαστε μουσουλμάνοι και να μην θεωρούμαστε προδότες, όσο κι εσείς να είστε χριστιανοί και επίσης να μη θεωρείστε προδότες (ως προς την αρχαιοελληνική παράδοση).
Ο Μωάμεθ για 13 χρόνια μετά απο την πρώτη του αποκάλυψη του Κορανίου, παρ’ όλο που βασάνιζαν τον ίδιο και τους ακόλουθούς του, τους έλεγε να κάνουν υπομονή, να είναι δυνατοί, κλπ. Αφού φύγανε απο την Μέκκα και πήγαν στην Μεδίνα, και τους έκαναν επιθέσεις οι Κουραϊσίτες (Μεκκανοί), αποκαλύφθηκε στον Μωάμεθ στίχος που τους επέτρεπε να αμυνθούν, και καθ’ όλα τα χρόνια που ήταν στην Μεδίνα, αυτό ήταν που έκαναν, κρατόντας πάντα υπ’ όψη την ηθική πολέμου (να σκοτώνονται αποκλειστικά και μόνο οι στρατιώτες, να μην πειράζουν γυναίκες παιδιά και ηλικιωμένους, δεντρα, ζώα εκτώς για να τα φάνε, κλπ.). Μάλιστα, δεν κατέκτησαν με μάχη την Μέκκα, και όταν μπήκαν στην Μέκκα, κανείς δεν πέθανε, οι ιστορικές σου γνώσεις είναι περιορισμένες φοβάμε.
Όσο για το ότι στον Χριστιανισμό δεν χρειάζονται οι παπάδες, δεν ξέρεις προφανώς τι λες, γιατί η Εκκλησία με το παπαδαριό της πάντα υπήρχε, και πάντα αυτοί ήλεγχαν τις μάζες των χριστιανών, η μοναστική ζωή συνήθως ήταν η εξαίρεση του κανόνα, και οι μοναχοί πάλι απο την Εκκλησία (τους πατέρες της Εκκλησίας) πέρνουν την θεολογία τους κλπ. οπότε δεν καταλαβαίνω τι θες να πείς.
“Because I think most of you won’t be able to read in Greek I will continue in English. Tell me what Islam has that Christianity does not offer. Deep down your islam was made to correct my flaws which in my opinion I consider that your thinking is irrational. The pork eating, halal, not drinking alcohol, wearing clothes that are quite archaic to today, makes Muslims a backward society and frankly these are the reasons which alienate you from Christianity, Yes you claim Jesus was a prophet, not the son of God, yet who was his father. Joseph???? Don’t you see the Jewish religion is more similar to yours. They are your brothers not Christians. Jesus came to get rid of these restrictions that are quite irrational.”
Actually most of us do read Greek, I mean, would be weird for a greek not to read Greek.
Islam has rulings that keep society running (rules about economy, justice, and the list goes on). Wearing specific clothes is not necessary, as long as they keep up with the Islamic principles, that’s why you’ll see Muslims in Indonesia for example, wearing completely different clothes than in Saudi Arabia or whatever. They are not per se archaic, clothing is not something that has to change throughout time, perhaps modernizing is nice (regarding the clothing), but it doesn’t have to be wester or to change the essence of clothing to be modern. And not eating pork or not drinking alcohol is not backwards either, I mean, look how modern Jews are, and they also dress in traditional clothing and don’t eat pork-don’t drink alcohol (at least those who hold firm to their religion).
Yes, indeed the Jewish religion is more similar to ours, and that’s the main difference between Islam and Christendom, that Islam remains on the same theology, while Christendom takes a big turn, and goes back to paganism, giving God a human form, using icons in their religions liturgy, etc., the Jews didn’t do these things and considering that Christendom is based on Judaism, Christendom fails to follow the law, as Jesus said “I have not come to abolish the law” and “hear oh Israel, the Lord thy God is One Lord” and obviously even fails to follow Jesus properly. Anyway, Christians are still beloved to us, and are still our brothers.
“Praying 5 times a day!!!! Yet after you do all sins just like Christians. And to all you converts who have drank and eaten pork, how are you model muslims. You commented sins before. You will not see your paradise.”
What’s wrong with praying 5 times a day? Is it unspiritual or something? I thought spirituality was “in” again.
Some of us do sins like the Christians, not in any way all of us. And God says that with the recognition that He is One Lord, and that there is no other, we are forgiven by our past sins, like a rebirth, like the baptism, with the only difference that we only have to utter the words (while being convinced inside our head and heart as well of course), that we bear witness that there is no deity except God. That’s the point where we change our lives, being now aware of God’s will and the way of life that will make the society better.
“Choosing Islam is your right however it is not right to convert people who have not discovered Christianity on their own born in Christian households. Orthodox Christianity is quite good and you guys never tried to learn about it. It is quite sad. It is also a huge problem when you force a secular country of Christian values to adopt to your rules because you wish to be different. It is not up to us to adopt to you but you must adopt to our ways just like I must adopt to the laws of Iran or Saudi Arabia for say. What do you gain by leaving your Greek culture and adopting a Arabic culture????”
Who is being converted? As far as I know, we all converted by our selves, after studying both Christianity and Islam and possibly other religions as well. We never forced any country to adopt our values (like, that all french women should wear a headscarf, never done anything like that), and we do adapt as much as possible in these secular countries, but we can’t disobey God and obey a human instead, this is irrational to us. God does not command us anything extreme or anything that will make the secular societies less joyful.
Anyway, I didn’t adopt any culture, I adopted a way of life-religion. I might not eat pork, but chicken souvlaki tastes even better in my humble opinion, so I still remain Greek, eating souvlaki, with the only difference that it is halal (permitted) meat instead of pork, I don’t see the problem. Also, I don’t have to be an alcoholic to be Greek, and, I can enjoy life much better without alcohol, always sober in thought.
“You do not wish to converse with me because you have no possible answers to my questions. You pray in Arabic, not Greek that I truly find my true path yet you change your name to Arabic and claim to still be Greek. You are so wrong. When your name is not Greek no more what is left. Greece is a proud country with its own rich history. It certainly does not need to adopt a culture passed on to different races through war and
veils their women because men cannot behave. Time to address the following issues.”
Αφού “You do not wish to converse with me because you have no possible answers to my questions”, πάω πάσσο.
Ναι, απαγγέλω στην προσευή το Κοράνι στα Αραβικά, επειδή σε αυτή την γλώσσα έχει μια ιδιαίτερη μαγεία. Το να απαγγέλω την μετάφραση θα ήταν τουλάχιστον κουλό, δεν συμφωνείς; Το όνομά μου επίσημα είναι Σεβαστιανός Αρβανίτης, και οι περισσότεροι (μουσουλμάνοι εμπεριεχομένως) με ξέρουν με αυτό το όνομα.
Σαφώς η Ελλάδα είναι υπερίφανη χώρα, λόγο της πλούσιας ιστορίας της, δυστυχώς όμως βλέπεις αναγκάστηκε να υιοθετήσει τον Εβραϊκό πολιτισμό, με τον εκ-χριστιανισμό. Να ‘ναι καλά οι Άραβες που διασώσανε γραφές και λοιπά, και τα ξαναδιαδώσανε στην Ευρώπη. Μάλιστα, για φαντάσου τους Χριστιανούς, να καίνε τις γνώσεις αυτές και να τις καταπολεμάνε (τις αρχαιοελληνικές), και ξαφνικά να βλέπουν τους Μουσουλμάνους να βγάζουν απο το χώμα έναν υπερπολιτισμό, όπου αυτά που καταπολεμούσαν οι Χριστιανοί έπαιζαν μεγάλο ρόλο.
Μετά ζήλεψαν και τα μεταφράσανε και στα Λατινικά και βρήκαν το φώς τους. Ποιός τίμησε όμως περισσότερο τους προπάτορές μας; Μακάρι να καταφέρουμε να τους τιμήσουμε ξανά, ξεπεταγώμενοι και προσπερνόντας τους δυτικούς, και δείχνοντας πως ο Έλληνας δεν είναι βάρβαρος (it’s all greek to me, άκους εκεί). Καταλαβαίνω πως οι Οθωμανοί μας κράτησαν πολλά χρόνια πίσω, αλλά κακά τα ψέμματα, μετά την επανάσταση βαριόμασταν κι εμείς να συνεχίσουμε την άνοδω. Ξέχνα την μαντύλα και το χοιρινό, δεν μας κρατάνε αυτά πίσω. Οι διαμάχες μας κρατάνε πίσω, αυτές πρέπει να σταματήσουμε για να πάμε μπροστά.
Ειρήνη σοι.
Συμφωνώ με την Ιμάν δεν αξίζει τον κόπο να απαντήσεις σε όλα αυτά καθώς δεν είναι ερωτήσεις αλλά αδαείς διαπιστώσεις από έναν κλασσικό νεοέλληνα, με ό,τι αυτό σημαίνει.
Δηλαδή είμαστε Έλληνες και αυτό φτάνει; πρέπει να μένουμε αγράμματοι και ανιστόρητοι και θα γλιτώσουμε επειδή είμαστε Έλληνες; θα μας προστατέψει το αρχέγονο dna μας;
Βλέπεις Αμίρ ότι ο άνθρωπος δεν ξέρει τίποτα. Ούτε ιστορία, ούτε καν τη θρησκεία του. Κοίτα τι γράφει : “Ο Χρηστός δεν κατέκτισε κανένα. Αυτά λένε πολλά. Ο Χρηστός δεν είναι θεός. ” Ούτε καν το όνομα του Χριστού, ούτε καν ότι η ορθοδοξία ορίζει ρητά “ομοούσιο τω Πατρι”
Έλεος! δε χρειάζεται να κάνει κανείς παρέα με τους Έλληνες Μουσουλμάνους, είναι μάλλον βαρετοί για τη νεοελληνική πραγματικότητα. Διαβάζουν τα πάντα, προσεύχονται, νηστεύουν, δουλεύουν, παντρεύονται και κάνουν οικογένεια από μικρή ηλικία, διασκεδάζουν χωρίς να γίνονται λιώμα από τα ξύδια, άσε καλύτερα.
Φάτε χοιρινό και αναρωτηθείτε αν ο Ιησούς Χριστός το έφαγε ποτέ του! Βήμα-βήμα! γιατί η αλήθεια αν έρθει σε μία δόση μπορεί να πέσει λίγο βαριά.
Α, Άννα, μην ανησυχείς, μου αρέσει να απαντάω σε τέτοιες ερωτήσεις, άλλωστε, αν δεν τον βγάλουν άλλοι απο την λήθη του, ποιός θα το κάνει; Δυστυχώς βλέπεις καταντήσαμε η ελληνική νεολαία “γενιά του καναπέ”, και δεν νομίζω η τηλεόραση ποτέ να μας διαφωτήσει (όσες προσπάθειες κι αν κάνει ο Χαρδαβέλας, δεν έχει καταφέρει τίποτα ακόμα, όλοι στα γέλια τον έχουν :Ρ:Ρ:Ρ). Αλήθεια όμως, αμα του λέμε “α, μη του απαντάς, έχει τα μαύρα μεσάνυχτά του”, θα γίνει κι αυτός πιο αρνητικός, και εφόσον μου αρέσει εμένα (να απαντάω), βγαίνουμε όλοι κερδισμένοι.
Φυσικά και έχεις δίκιο, μακάρι να είχαμε όλοι το σκεπτικο σου. Καλή δύναμη!
Dear Greek Guy
You say:
“Your ancestors fought to liberate us from the Muslim oppressor yet you now chose this religion 200 years later”.
From a Greek Guy(myself) to a Greek Guy(you) I would say to you that my ancestors and your ancestors had the right to fight against oppression as much as any human being have the same right. However, a Muslim oppressor, a Christian oppressor, a Greek oppressor or any oppressor for that matter, are equally unjust in the eyes of God. So, oppression is a human situation and not in any way a religious direction. Humans are violent and religions are in essence, the moral component necessary to humanize people. Most religions reject oppression and Islam is not an exception. What people do in the name of religion is not always what their religion commands them to do.
“Always the same old thing, eating pork is wrong, It is dirty. Yet half the things we consume today are dirty with all those chemicals added to them”.
Read the studies on pork meat consumption and make your own conclusions. As far as I know, pork is the nearest (almost identical) to the human flesh. And yes you’re right about the chemicals in foods today. In fact, the Quran urges us to eat food that is halal and tajib that is permissible and pure.
“Also, if you were stuck in the woods and had nothing to eat I am sure you would eat the first pig you saw”.
You’re right on that one too. Muslims are permitted to eat swine in case of starvation and if they have no other option. That of course does include “I’m really hungry and I just happen to enter a souvlatzidiko”! it applies only when there is absolutely no other solution.
“Eating pig, drinking alcohol, not eating halal is my right!!! It does not hurt anyone but me if it is bad”.
Well, of course you have the right to choose if you want to believe in God and follow His commands or don’t believe in God and/or disobey His commands. At the end of the day, if you drink, eat or do things that harm you, you will harm yourself, not God. However, if you drink publicly, urging others to drink too, then you don’t just harm yourself but others too. Maybe you can control yourself and not become aggressive or violent due to alcohol but some others might not be able control themselves. Have you ever thought in what ways you might harm others? Have you ever considered your social responsibility? Unfortunately, we live in an age, where everyone talks about their rights but few consider their responsibilities!
“One other thing is, which God would let you starve to death during a month in the daytime and then at night time you can eat like a pig and make love to four different woman!!! No offense, I love that however it is called cheating and wrong”.
“As all countries say it even muslim ones, polygamy is wrong. Even in the 10 commandments, things such as cheating are condemned meaning you only have one partner”.
If fasting is considered as starvation to death or as a way of expressing deprived lower passions, such fasting will not be accepted by God, so it is as if one never fasted. The purpose of fasting is to achieve spiritual uplift. It is for one to become aware of others who starve, to become aware of his/her character by not backbiting and to manage to take control over his/her passions.
In Sharia, it is a woman’s right to refuse polygamy in her marriage and for a man who marries up to 4 wives, he is obliged to treat them equally and maintain them. That is not considered cheating, that is mutual agreement. Cheating is to conceal or manipulate and that would render a marriage void, by Sharia.
May be you think that is backward and unfair. Do you mean, the modern concept of “wife and mistress” is appropriate? Obviously, some men do have relationships with more than one woman and they can afford it and some women don’t mind sharing the same man. What Islam is saying is, if you want and you are allowed and if you can afford it, then you can have more than one wife but you should take the responsibility of your actions.
“A country with Sharia Law is no country but a theocratic tyranny”.
No country in the world applies Sharia law today. Sharia is a holistic legal system and cannot be applied in pieces. You cannot have a regime that deprives people of their basic needs and then apply laws that persecute people for stealing. As simple as that.
Besides, you don’t know what sharia is about and I don’t have enough space here to explain to you.
“Another thing it is not up to the woman to veil herself so that other guys don’t fixate on her. It is up to us guys to conduct ourselves in a orderly manner”.
God created men and women equal in terms of their actions but in many aspects they are not equal because they have different attributes and qualities. He created them in order for them to find tranquility in each other and complement each other, not to be antagonistic to each other. Generally, women have power over men being attracted to them and men have power women, in physical strength. In addition, women tend to be more spiritual and men tend to be weaker in their passions. Once again, with power comes responsibility. So by veiling, women protect themselves and men around them and men should indeed behave in an orderly manner by not using coercive force over women, rather treat them with respect and dignity. Then the desired tranquility will be achieved between them.
“I know muslim guys who do all the religion says and yet they go around sleeping around. Yet they claim to be muslim. Very ironic don’t you think???”
Well, how do you know these muslim guys do everything their religion says, if you don’t know what the religion of Islam is saying? Is it because they tell you that? Obviously, some muslims do not do everything their religion tells them to do, either by choice or by ignorance. People make claims all the time. These claims are called empty talk if they are not backed up by actions! Ironically, some people base their conclusions on their impressions rather than knowledge.
“I am not trying to say that Christianity is right, however it would of been right if we people followed the words of Jesus himself and not those of the priests. Religion is a human invention, not from God himself”.
Religion is part of the human nature and it is based on revelation from God. Human invention is to alter God’s revelation in order to fit the aims and purposes of men. All people believe and live according to their beliefs. For a person whose ultimate concern is money then money is his/her God and that will be expressed through adopting values and practices such as following the stock market 5 times a day in order to be updated for the latest news. A muslim’s ultimate concern is God and that will be expressed by following God’s commands and by updating his/her connection to Him at least 5 times every day, through prayer.
“It was not meant for you of Greek culture to adopt a Arabic culture. We lived it and our ancestors were slained to death to give us back our liberty”.
Who is “We”? Where you there 200 years ago? Do you know anything about the Islamic civilization? If it wasn’t for the muslims that you despise so much, you wouldn’t even have a Greek culture today! How do you think Europe entered into the enlightment period, through France? Where did France got its enlightment from? Who systematized science as we know it today?
“Your ignorance sadly has let you in a trap of mass conversion initiated by our lovely neighbors who live in the Middle East. But, I guess I am wrong and you are right. As you say Allah will judge me when my time comes. Geez!!!”
If you believe in what Jesus said then you should believe in the Day of Judgment and yes Allah (God) will judge you as He will judge all of us when that time comes. You are wrong if you believe such Day will not come. I will leave ignorance for now.
“No offense guys, but we need to start thinking that religion is archaic”.
We have considered it and found that religion true to the letter. You should start thinking; maybe that religion is not as archaic as you think it is or as archaic as other religions may be.
“God is a metaphysical element which we would never see nor experience. If he actually exists is another question that cannot be answered. No one can claim he knows the true answer since God as kindly as he is would of prevented such wars in honor of his name. Unless, he himself is not so kindly. Everyday new religions are born. We call them sects. That was how Christianity and Islam were born”.
That is the typical argument of atheists. So, either you believe both in Jesus and God, or you don’t. You sound confused, so it might help to tell you, the world around you is full of miracles, as a manifestation of God’s existence. Maybe you don’t see them, that doesn’t they are not there.
“Therefore, it is up for you young people to get educated, find a job and stop spending your parents money by sitting all around claiming stupidities”.
Once again, as a Greek Guy to a Greek Guy, I would tell you that my ancestors and your ancestors (those ancients we still praise and remember today), where deeply thinking individuals. Their opinions were based on serious observations and facts, in other words they didn’t just argue. So, if you want to honor your ancestors, I suggest, first you ask, then you find out the facts, then you consider the facts and then you argue. Education is a result of all 4 steps and it seems you just jumped to the last one! Judging something you know very little about, is what I call ignorance. Stupidity is to judge something when you know absolutely nothing about it. So, stupidity is to think that all the people in this forum/site are young, they are uneducated, they don’t have a job and they sit around spending their parents’ money.
“So please stop trying to pass on the message of the Prophet. Buddhism has also amazing things in it. I wish you could all go read it a bit”.
Unfortunately we will not please you in your request since we believe in the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his message. Please turn away from it if you don’t like it or establish a dialogue if you want to know more about it.
You are right, Buddhism is a very interesting religion and Zen is even more interesting. My problem with these religions is that I don’t believe that the world around me is an illusion and I cannot prostrate to a created thing. I had the same problem with shintoism. However, there is an illusionary aspect of this world that is, the short period we spend here compared to the eternity of the next life and I chose to prostrate to the Creator of created things and not His creation.
That is Islam. May be you should read a little bit about it before you judge it!
“If it wasn’t for the muslims that you despise so much, you wouldn’t even have a Greek culture today! How do you think Europe entered into the enlightment period, through France? Where did France got its enlightment from? Who systematized science as we know it today?”
^^ Not true, Greek culture as we know it today has its roots in over 4000 years of history, our language, culture, art, laws, etc.. does not owe its existance to muslim culture ,other than the fact we had to fight our muslim oppresors for over 400 years to regain our freedom. Now if you are refering to the fact that Muslim Arabs preserved and translated ancient Greek text this is true but on a limited scale. As no Arabic translation of either the Odyssey or the Iliad was ever made. Ancient Greek writings on science and medicine were translated, however, ancient Greek literature, tragedies, comedies, history and other such texts never made its way into the consciousness of the Muslim world, where this was always the case in Europe, particularly in Western Europe. So to answer your question the Greeks did not rely on Islamic culture to rediscover their ancient text, if anything Greek text copied into Arabic may have brought some light to a people that have contributed very little in the way of world enlightenment.
There you are SOS. Whenever I think we lost you, you come out from lurk mode. But sometimes I wonder why people who don’t agree with Islam hang out at Muslim sites? Don’t get me wrong. Your comments spice up our blog.
But, really, I wonder. I have this really crazy guess. Not about you, but just others in general. When people figure out that there are holes in their own “religion”, they lose sense of the world. They know there is truth out there – somewhere – there has to be. God is with us, but where and how? They are rethinking but they would never admit to it because that would mean that everything they learned in the past is a lie. They make up these “explanations” to help them deny their heart, like, “Oh, well, it doesn’t matter what religion you are, because they are all the same” or, “It would be dumb to say that anyone knows what God wants” etc. Hmmm, the more I think about it, the more it is inspiring me to write a blog post!
Well, anyway, just wanted to say hi to you SOS and welcome back…as always!
I just like to add my 2 cents from time to time in regards to`rethinking` Greek history..
and which Sparta of yours wins this time? Sparta of our proud ancient era or the dark era of Δεσποτάτο του Μυστρά? You can’t have both it is controversial!
Thank you for your comment Son of Sparta.
Before I answer you, I should apologize for 2 mistakes in my previous letter, which I would like to correct.
The first mistake was that, I was actually referring to the period of renaissance and not the enlightenment period. Somehow, I mix these two periods (in name) and that probably has to do with my thinking in three different languages. Sometimes my brain short-circuits!
My second mistake the following expression: “If it wasn’t for the Muslims that you despise so much, you wouldn’t even have a Greek culture today”. In reality, no one knows how it would be if it wasn’t for the Muslims. My estimation is that it would take much longer for Europe to come out of its medieval and in many ways dark age. My belief (and my understanding) does not allow me to make definitive judgments.
Aristotelian ideas that reached Europe through Muslims, was the spark that ignited renaissance and the influence of Islamic civilization was major even at the initiation of the enlightenment period . Knowledge and its transmission from Muslims to Europeans should tell you something about how Muslims viewed knowledge. Knowledge was open to everyone who could grasp it. Knowledge was questioned and scrutinized for the purpose of progress. The scientific methods as we know them today were developed from Muslim scholars. That means, Islam and science (knowledge), never contradicted each other. The Quran urges Muslims to seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave! On the other hand, knowledge in the medieval Europe was in the hands of the few (church) and it was used (or not used), in order to manipulate and exploit people. Whether you like it or not, Europe coming out of its dark ages, we owe it to Muslims.
If you accept that Muslims just preserved knowledge and passed it to Europeans without adding and producing knowledge themselves then you should accept that Greeks didn’t produce knowledge either! They got their knowledge for Assyrians and Egyptians just as Muslims took it from Greeks.
Greeks didn’t invent knowledge, they just took the knowledge of their time, they developed it further and they were probably the first to write it down. Knowledge is not static; it is progressive which means, every people and every civilization has added to it their part. The same is true for Greeks as it is for Muslims or any other civilization. Because knowledge progresses, it should have a beginning point and which would that be?
Here’s the answer:
“Read! In the name of your Rabb (Cherisher and Sustainer) Who created— created man, out of a leech-like clot: Read! And your Rabb is Most Bountiful Who has taught (the use of) pen. He has taught man that which he knew not.” (Qur’an, 96:1-5)
You write:
“Not true, Greek culture as we know it today has its roots in over 4000 years of history, our language, culture, art, laws, etc.. does not owe its existance to muslim culture ,other than the fact we had to fight our muslim oppresors for over 400 years to regain our freedom”.
“Now if you are refering to the fact that Muslim Arabs preserved and translated ancient Greek text this is true but on a limited scale”.
The reason I didn’t reply to you earlier, was because I was reflecting on these 2 statements because something in them doesn’t fit. If you reflect too, on those statements, you will hopefully discover their falsehood. To help you, I will tell you it is not in historical facts it is rather in their meaning. If you don’t reply within 3 days, I will post my comment and we can continue from there if you want.
Personally I am proud to be Greek and I am proud to be Muslim and I am proud for each of their civilizations. However, I prefer to see them for what they are and not for what I think they are. So, everything I would write to you about the Islamic civilization, you will find it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe#Islamic_sciences
I hope you have a couple of cents spare, to read it.
The first mistake was that, I was actually referring to the period of renaissance and not the enlightenment period.
^^Thus as I understand you ment to write about the Renaissance 14th to the 16th century AD and not the Enlightenment 17th to the 18th century AD. OK then, lets recap your statements.
“How do you think Europe entered into the (RENAISSANCE) enlightment period, through France? Where did France got its (RENAISSANCE)enlightment from? Who systematized science as we know it today?”
“Knowledge and its transmission from Muslims to Europeans should tell you something about how Muslims viewed knowledge. Knowledge was open to everyone who could grasp it. Knowledge was questioned and scrutinized for the purpose of progress. The scientific methods as we know them today were developed from Muslim scholars. That means, Islam and science (knowledge), never contradicted each other. The Quran urges Muslims to seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave! On the other hand, knowledge in the medieval Europe was in the hands of the few (church) and it was used (or not used), in order to manipulate and exploit people. Whether you like it or not, Europe coming out of its dark ages, we owe it to Muslims.”
Well lets take the first part the Renaissance reaching medieval Europe (France), you argue as a result of ” a transmission from Muslims to Europeans.” Well here’s a few points you forgot to mention. First, Constaninople falls to the Ottoman Turks in 1453, as a result many Greek scholars migrate to Venice and Florence bringing with them ancient Greek texts and sparking the Renaissance in Western Europe. The Roman Empire never fell in Eastern Europe so the heritage of the classical Greek world never came to an end in the East until the Muslims invaded. There are many sources for this which I will glady provide below. As the Renaissance spread through Europe it not only spread the scientic methods developed but also of art and literature, this processes started gaining momentum. Now as for the Muslims they did incoporate ancient Greek texts in scientific understanding, however they omitted to incoprate many Greek ideals in art and culture as well as Roman laws because that ran counter to their own religious belief systems. The political concept of constitutions, the idea that man is the measure of all things, the role of the artist are ideas that sprang up in ancient Greece and again in the Renaissance and as far as I know this concept is either not to be found in Islamic cultures or exists in a completely different form. At the same time Muslim culture also came into Euope via southern Spain so for those Europeans further away from Greece their exposure to Greek thinkers came through the Muslim Moors, yet this exposure was only in the fields of science and not in the areas of art, literature and Greek culture.
The Renaissance as a word is defined as the rebirth of classical culture which not the the same as Islamic culture.
A few references..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_the_Renaissance
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/late/laterbyz/harris-ren.html
Son of Sparta, thank you for the links you sent me. I didn’t have the time to answer you earlier, but lets examine those links of yours. I will refer to texts, followed by the links where you will find them.
Before I continue, I should say, my point was from the beginning that Muslims didn’t just preserved and transferred ancient knowledge as you wrongly stated in your previous letter. They added a great deal of knowledge and influenced Europe in ways you can’t even imagine because you were probably never taught about how things did really happened. If you think that you live in a modern world of freedom of speech and education, of human rights and health care then I advise you to follow the logo of this site and rethink. Rethink of what you really know. Hospitals, legal and educational institutions, environmental awareness and science in its present form, were not invented by Europeans. Europeans adopted all these, through centuries of contact with Islamic civilization. God willing, you will find out for yourself, if you have the patience to read through this long letter.
Let’s continue with the texts:
In the introductory text from the second link you sent me, it mentions:
“Yet the image of the Byzantine exiles as venerable scholars fleeing with their books under their arms represents both an exaggeration and an understatement. It exaggerates the part played by individual Byzantines in the revival of Greek learning in Italy, while ignoring the vast majority of the emigres, who were involved in no scholarly activity whatsoever. This article will look first at the wider phenomenon of Greek immigration to Italy in the fifteenth century, before turning to the question of the contribution of the Byzantines to the Italian Renaissance.”
A part of the conclusion of the same text:
“The traditional picture of the Byzantine exiles in fifteenth-century Italy, as painted by Gibbon, does represent something of an exaggeration. It ignores the fact that Greek studies had not been entirely moribund in the previous century, as Bruni claimed, and stresses the role of a small number of individuals. At the same time, it underestimates the role of the army of obscure Greek scribes and printers who did so much to bring about the multiplication of the necessary texts, and forgets that the scholars were part of a wider influx of refugees, many of whom were involved in no literary activity whatsoever”.
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/late/laterbyz/harris-ren.html
Truths need not negate each other but sometimes they do. Indeed, Greeks of Italy did contribute to the renaissance but not nearly as much as Muslims who introduced Greek ideas of philosophy and science to Europe, long before Byzantines fleeing to Italy. As you will see, Muslims further developed the knowledge they inherited from Greeks and not just retransmitted it. A rather long text follows but it is worth reading it.
“The Byzantines, for whom Greek was the dominant language, made use of only parts of their classical Greek heritage, and were more interested in preserving Christian writings. Thus, for a long time in Europe after the execution of Boethius (one of the last writers with a good understanding of both Latin and Greek philosophy), there was a disregard for Greek ideas. Scribes often recycled old books, scraping off old, philosophical texts in order to create religious books.[citation needed] After a while, only a few monasteries had Greek works, and even fewer of them copied these works (mainly the Irish).[3] Irish monks had been taught by Greek and Latin missionaries who probably had brought Greek texts with them.[4] However, Irish preservation of these ideas, though valuable, did not introduce nearly as much Greek philosophy and science to the west as did the work of translators of Arabic from 1100 – 1300 CE. Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after their invasion of southern portions of the Byzantine Empire. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab west into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. This work of translation, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.[citation needed]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_Greek_philosophical_ideas_in_the_Middle_Ages
Lets examine the first link you sent:
“During the Renaissance, great advances occurred in geography, astronomy, chemistry, physics, math, manufacturing, and engineering.”
“Also, the invention of printing was to have great effect on European society: the facilitated dissemination of the printed word democratized learning and allowed a faster propagation of new ideas.”
“But this initial period is usually seen as one of scientific backwardness. There were no new developments in physics or astronomy, and the reverence for classical sources further enshrined the Aristotelian and Ptolemaic views of the universe. Philosophy lost much of its rigour as the rules of logic and deduction were seen as secondary to intuition and emotion.”
“Science would only be revived later, with such figures as Copernicus, Francis Bacon, and Descartes.”
Regarding the scientific advances of renaissance, the article never mentions where the knowledge came from. The basic knowledge did come from ancient texts, but it was Muslims who further developed and refined it. Europeans did not work things out themselves as you will see. Even printing was introduced to Europe by the Muslims! So, it was not an invention of printing, it was rather an invention of a new technique for printing.
“Though Europe adopted woodblock printing from the Muslim world, initially for fabric, the technique of metal block printing remained unknown in Europe. Block printing later went out of use in Islamic Central Asia after movable type printing was introduced from China.[1][2]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing#In_Europe
“Al-Khazini’s Zij as-Sanjari (1115-1116) was translated into Greek by Gregory Choniades in the 13th century and was studied in the Byzantine Empire.[16] The astronomical corrections to the Ptolemaic model made by al-Battani and Averroes and the non-Ptolemaic models produced by Mo’ayyeduddin Urdi (Urdi lemma), Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī (Tusi-couple) and Ibn al-Shatir were later adapted into the Copernican heliocentric model. Al-Kindi’s (Alkindus) law of terrestrial gravity influenced Robert Hooke’s law of celestial gravity, which in turn inspired Newton’s law of universal gravitation. Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī’s Ta’rikh al-Hind and Kitab al-qanun al-Mas’udi were translated into Latin as Indica and Canon Mas’udicus respectively.”
“A translation of the Algebra by al-Kharizmi is known as early as 1145, by a certain Robert of Chester. Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen, 980-1037) compiled treaties on optical sciences, which were used as references by Newton and Descartes.”
“The chemical and alchemical works of Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan) were translated into Latin around the 12th century and became standard texts for European alchemists.[13] These include the Kitab al-Kimya (titled Book of the Composition of Alchemy in Europe), translated by Robert of Chester (1144); and the Kitab al-Sab’een, translated by Gerard of Cremona (before 1187).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe#Islamic_sciences
“The astronomy of the late Middle Ages was based on the geocentric model described by Claudius Ptolemy in antiquity. Probably very few practicing astronomers or astrologers actually read Ptolemy’s Almagest, which had been translated into Latin by Gerard of Cremona in the 12th century.
For the task of predicting planetary motions they turned to the Alfonsine Tables, a set of astronomical tables based on the Almagest models but incorporating some later modifications, mainly the trepidation model attributed to Thabit ibn Qurra. Contrary to popular belief, astronomers of the Middle Ages and Renaissance did not resort to “epicycles on epicycles” in order to correct the original Ptolemaic models—until one comes to Copernicus himself.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_the_Renaissance
Now, what did Thabit ibn Qurra?
“Only a few of Thabit’s works are preserved in their original form.
The medieval astronomical theory of the trepidation of the equinoxes is often attributed to Thabit. But it had already been described by Theon of Alexandria in his comments of the Handy Tables of Ptolemaeus. According to Copernicus Thabit determined the length of the sidereal year as 365 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes and 12 seconds (an error of 2 seconds). Copernicus based his claim on the Latin text attributed to Thabit. Thabit published his observations of the Sun.
In mathematics, Thabit discovered an equation for determining the amicable numbers. He also wrote on the theory of numbers, and extended their use to describe the ratios between geometrical quantities, a step which the Greeks never took. Another important contribution Thabit made to geometry was his generalization of the Pythagorean theorem, which he extended from special right triangles to all triangles in general, along with a general proof.[2]
In physics, Thabit rejected the Peripatetic and Aristotelian notions of a “natural place” for each element. He instead proposed a theory of motion in which both the upward and downward motions are caused by weight, and that the order of the universe is a result of two competing attractions (jadhb): one of these being “between the sublunar and celestial elements”, and the other being “between all parts of each element separately”.[3]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thabit_ibn_Qurra
Another scientific development of renaissance was geography. Where did that come from?
“The Arabs added a great deal of knowledge to expand and correct the classical sources. There were some representatives of the West that produced geographical works of quality, such as the Syrian bishop Jacob of Edessa (633-708), but this paled in comparison to the virtual mountain of work published by Islamic writers of the Middle Ages (who were largely responsible for the foundations of knowledge present in later Western geography).[3]”
“In mathematical geography, Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī, around 1025, was the first to describe a polar equi-azimuthal equidistant projection of the celestial sphere.[25]”
“ohn J. O’Connor and Edmund F. Robertson write in the MacTutor History of Mathematics archive:
“Important contributions to geodesy and geography were also made by al-Biruni. He introduced techniques to measure the earth and distances on it using triangulation. He found the radius of the earth to be 6339.6 km, a value not obtained in the West until the 16th century. His Masudic canon contains a table giving the coordinates of six hundred places, almost all of which he had direct knowledge.”[31]”
“The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[32] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection.[33]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geography#Middle_Ages
Have you ever considered the world you live in today and where so many things you take for granted originate from? Human rights, hospitals, universities, academic degrees, science, you name it. Lets have a look:
“Islamic law also introduced “two fundamental principles to the West, on which were to later stand the future structure of law: equity and good faith”[citation needed], which was a precursor to the concept of pacta sunt servanda in civil law and international law. Another influence of Islamic law on the civil law tradition was the presumption of innocence, which was introduced to Europe by Louis IX of France soon after he returned from Palestine during the Crusades. Islamic law was based on the presumption of innocence from its beginning, as declared by the caliph Umar in the 7th century.[111]”
“A number of Islamic legal concepts on human rights were also adopted in European legal systems, including concepts such as the charitable trust, trusteeship of property, human dignity, dignity of labour[citation needed], condemnation of antisocial behavior, presumption of innocence, caring, women’s rights, privacy, juristic personality, individual freedom, equality before the law, non-retroactivity, limited sovereignty, tolerance[citation needed].”
“Since the publication of legal scholar John Makdisi’s “The Islamic Origins of the Common Law” in the North Carolina Law Review,[99] there has been controversy over whether English common law was inspired by medieval Islamic law.[105] Several scholars have argued that several fundamental common law institutions may have been adapted from similar legal institutions in Islamic law and jurisprudence, and introduced to England after the Norman conquest of England by the Normans, who conquered and inherited the Islamic legal administration of the Emirate of Sicily (see Arab-Norman culture).[99]”
“Europe adopted a number of educational, legal and scientific institutions from the Islamic world, including the public hospital (which replaced healing temples and sleep temples)[55] and psychiatric hospital,[56] the public library and lending library, the academic degree-granting university (see Madrasah), the astronomical observatory as a research institute[55] (as opposed to a private observation post as was the case in ancient times)[57] (see Islamic astronomy), the trust institution and charitable trust (see Waqf),[58][59] the agency and aval (Hawala),[60] and a variety of other such institutions.”
“If a university is assumed to mean an institution of higher education and research which issues academic degrees at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, then the Jami’ah which appeared from the 9th century were the first examples of such an institution.[98][100] The University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco is thus recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest degree-granting university in the world with its founding in 859 by Fatima al-Fihri.[101]”
“The origins of the doctorate dates back to the ijazat attadris wa ‘l-ifttd (“license to teach and issue legal opinions”) in the medieval Islamic legal education system, which was equivalent to the Doctor of Laws qualification and was developed during the 9th century after the formation of the Madh’hab legal schools. To obtain a doctorate, a student “had to study in a guild school of law, usually four years for the basic undergraduate course” and ten or more years for a post-graduate course.
Hospitals began as Bimaristans in the Islamic world and later spread to Europe during the Crusades, inspired by the hospitals in the Middle East. The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the Crusade between 1254-1260.[“
Here are some other contributions to think about:
“The method of algorism for performing arithmetic with Indian-Arabic numerals was developed by al-Khwarizmi (hence the word “Algorithm”) in the 9th century, and introduced in Europe by Leonardo Fibonacci (1170-1250).[8]”
“One of the most important scientific works to be translated was Ibn al-Haytham’s Book of Optics (1021), which initiated a revolution in optics[26] and visual perception,[27] and introduced the earliest experimental scientific method,[28] for which Ibn al-Haytham is considered the “father of modern optics”[29] and founder of experimental physics.[30][31] The Book of Optics laid the foundations for modern optics,[29] the scientific method,[28] experimental physics[30] and experimental psychology,[32] for which it has been ranked alongside Isaac Newton’s Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica as one of the most influential books in the history of physics.[33] The Latin translation of the Book of Optics influenced the works of many later European scientists, such as Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon, John Peckham, Witelo, William of Ockham, Leonardo da Vinci, Francis Bacon, René Descartes, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, and others.[34][35] The Book of Optics also laid the foundations for a variety of Western optical technologies, such as eyeglasses,[36] the camera,[37] the telescope and microscope, microscopy, retinal surgery, and robotic vision.[35]”
“Ibn Tufail’s Hayy ibn Yaqdhan was translated into Latin by Edward Pococke in 1671 and into English by Simon Ockley in 1708 and became “one of the most important books that heralded the Scientific Revolution.”[48] Ibn al-Baitar’s Kitab al-Jami fi al-Adwiya al-Mufrada also had an influence on European botany after it was translated into Latin in 1758.[49]”
“Dante Alighieri’s Divine Comedy, considered the greatest epic of Italian literature, derived many features of and episodes about the hereafter directly or indirectly from Arabic works on Islamic eschatology: the Hadith and the Kitab al-Miraj (translated into Latin in 1264 or shortly before[134] as Liber Scale Machometi, “The Book of Muhammad’s Ladder”) concerning Muhammad’s ascension to Heaven, and the spiritual writings of Ibn Arabi.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe#Islamic_sciences
Finally, for me it is not about a competition on history that is important. Important is to let history speak for itself and hopefully learn something from it. It is a fact that we owe Greeks a great deal in regards to our civilization. However, we owe a great deal to others too and we have to recognize that. My opinion is that the Greek and the Islamic civilizations (and I would tend to remotely include the Chinese too) are the most influential civilizations in the history of humankind. Why such great civilizations have become so denigrated as they are today, is a topic of another discussion. However, I will mention the two basic reasons in my estimation. Firstly, both for Muslims and Greeks, we arrogantly boast for the accomplishments of our ancestors instead of accomplishing something ourselves. Secondly, we live the revival of middle ages and jahalia period (the peiod of ignorance of Arabs, before the revelation of the Quran). This time, knowledge is not withheld by the church but by those who control the information and its flow (IT or Information Technology). And this time it is not the 300 idols traded by jahal Arab Mekkans that Quran set out to destroy. It is the financial interest of the few, in order to exploit people by creating idols for them to imitate. You probably don’t understand my last statement since (I assume) you don’t know much about islam, but most muslims who would read this, they would recognize it.
Since knowledge is filtered and directed, we need to research ourselves in order to find the truth. That takes time and time is unfortunately scarce in our stress lifestyle. That is of course a choice we make.
in my last letter, I forgot to post your first link after the following quotation:
“Science would only be revived later, with such figures as Copernicus, Francis Bacon, and Descartes.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_the_Renaissance
Salam aleykum.
Brother, this post is HUGE
If it is not too much for you, could you split it in two or three parts (resend, first one part of the text, than another)?
(Just to go with the forum rules, after you are done we will delete this huge post).
Part 1/2
Son of Sparta, thank you for the links you sent me. I didn’t have the time to answer you earlier, but lets examine those links of yours. I will refer to texts, followed by the links where you will find them.
Before I continue, I should say, my point was from the beginning that Muslims didn’t just preserved and transferred ancient knowledge as you wrongly stated in your previous letter. They added a great deal of knowledge and influenced Europe in ways you can’t even imagine because you were probably never taught about how things did really happened. If you think that you live in a modern world of freedom of speech and education, of human rights and health care then I advise you to follow the logo of this site and rethink. Rethink of what you really know. Hospitals, legal and educational institutions, environmental awareness and science in its present form, were not invented by Europeans. Europeans adopted all these, through centuries of contact with Islamic civilization. God willing, you will find out for yourself, if you have the patience to read through this long letter.
Let’s continue with the texts:
In the introductory text from the second link you sent me, it mentions:
“Yet the image of the Byzantine exiles as venerable scholars fleeing with their books under their arms represents both an exaggeration and an understatement. It exaggerates the part played by individual Byzantines in the revival of Greek learning in Italy, while ignoring the vast majority of the emigres, who were involved in no scholarly activity whatsoever. This article will look first at the wider phenomenon of Greek immigration to Italy in the fifteenth century, before turning to the question of the contribution of the Byzantines to the Italian Renaissance.”
A part of the conclusion of the same text:
“The traditional picture of the Byzantine exiles in fifteenth-century Italy, as painted by Gibbon, does represent something of an exaggeration. It ignores the fact that Greek studies had not been entirely moribund in the previous century, as Bruni claimed, and stresses the role of a small number of individuals. At the same time, it underestimates the role of the army of obscure Greek scribes and printers who did so much to bring about the multiplication of the necessary texts, and forgets that the scholars were part of a wider influx of refugees, many of whom were involved in no literary activity whatsoever”.
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/late/laterbyz/harris-ren.html
Truths need not negate each other but sometimes they do. Indeed, Greeks of Italy did contribute to the renaissance but not nearly as much as Muslims who introduced Greek ideas of philosophy and science to Europe, long before Byzantines fleeing to Italy. As you will see, Muslims further developed the knowledge they inherited from Greeks and not just retransmitted it. A rather long text follows but it is worth reading it.
“The Byzantines, for whom Greek was the dominant language, made use of only parts of their classical Greek heritage, and were more interested in preserving Christian writings. Thus, for a long time in Europe after the execution of Boethius (one of the last writers with a good understanding of both Latin and Greek philosophy), there was a disregard for Greek ideas. Scribes often recycled old books, scraping off old, philosophical texts in order to create religious books.[citation needed] After a while, only a few monasteries had Greek works, and even fewer of them copied these works (mainly the Irish).[3] Irish monks had been taught by Greek and Latin missionaries who probably had brought Greek texts with them.[4] However, Irish preservation of these ideas, though valuable, did not introduce nearly as much Greek philosophy and science to the west as did the work of translators of Arabic from 1100 – 1300 CE. Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after their invasion of southern portions of the Byzantine Empire. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab west into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas. This work of translation, though largely unplanned and disorganized, constituted one of the greatest transmissions of ideas in history.[citation needed]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_Greek_philosophical_ideas_in_the_Middle_Ages
Lets examine the first link you sent:
“During the Renaissance, great advances occurred in geography, astronomy, chemistry, physics, math, manufacturing, and engineering.”
“Also, the invention of printing was to have great effect on European society: the facilitated dissemination of the printed word democratized learning and allowed a faster propagation of new ideas.”
“But this initial period is usually seen as one of scientific backwardness. There were no new developments in physics or astronomy, and the reverence for classical sources further enshrined the Aristotelian and Ptolemaic views of the universe. Philosophy lost much of its rigour as the rules of logic and deduction were seen as secondary to intuition and emotion.”
“Science would only be revived later, with such figures as Copernicus, Francis Bacon, and Descartes.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_the_Renaissance
Regarding the scientific advances of renaissance, the article never mentions where the knowledge came from. The basic knowledge did come from ancient texts, but it was Muslims who further developed and refined it. Europeans did not work things out themselves as you will see. Even printing was introduced to Europe by the Muslims! So, it was not an invention of printing, it was rather an invention of a new technique for printing.
“Though Europe adopted woodblock printing from the Muslim world, initially for fabric, the technique of metal block printing remained unknown in Europe. Block printing later went out of use in Islamic Central Asia after movable type printing was introduced from China.[1][2]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing#In_Europe
“Al-Khazini’s Zij as-Sanjari (1115-1116) was translated into Greek by Gregory Choniades in the 13th century and was studied in the Byzantine Empire.[16] The astronomical corrections to the Ptolemaic model made by al-Battani and Averroes and the non-Ptolemaic models produced by Mo’ayyeduddin Urdi (Urdi lemma), Nasīr al-Dīn al-Tūsī (Tusi-couple) and Ibn al-Shatir were later adapted into the Copernican heliocentric model. Al-Kindi’s (Alkindus) law of terrestrial gravity influenced Robert Hooke’s law of celestial gravity, which in turn inspired Newton’s law of universal gravitation. Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī’s Ta’rikh al-Hind and Kitab al-qanun al-Mas’udi were translated into Latin as Indica and Canon Mas’udicus respectively.”
“A translation of the Algebra by al-Kharizmi is known as early as 1145, by a certain Robert of Chester. Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen, 980-1037) compiled treaties on optical sciences, which were used as references by Newton and Descartes.”
“The chemical and alchemical works of Geber (Jabir ibn Hayyan) were translated into Latin around the 12th century and became standard texts for European alchemists.[13] These include the Kitab al-Kimya (titled Book of the Composition of Alchemy in Europe), translated by Robert of Chester (1144); and the Kitab al-Sab’een, translated by Gerard of Cremona (before 1187).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe#Islamic_sciences
Part 2/2
“The astronomy of the late Middle Ages was based on the geocentric model described by Claudius Ptolemy in antiquity. Probably very few practicing astronomers or astrologers actually read Ptolemy’s Almagest, which had been translated into Latin by Gerard of Cremona in the 12th century.
For the task of predicting planetary motions they turned to the Alfonsine Tables, a set of astronomical tables based on the Almagest models but incorporating some later modifications, mainly the trepidation model attributed to Thabit ibn Qurra. Contrary to popular belief, astronomers of the Middle Ages and Renaissance did not resort to “epicycles on epicycles” in order to correct the original Ptolemaic models—until one comes to Copernicus himself.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_in_the_Renaissance
Now, what did Thabit ibn Qurra?
“Only a few of Thabit’s works are preserved in their original form.
The medieval astronomical theory of the trepidation of the equinoxes is often attributed to Thabit. But it had already been described by Theon of Alexandria in his comments of the Handy Tables of Ptolemaeus. According to Copernicus Thabit determined the length of the sidereal year as 365 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes and 12 seconds (an error of 2 seconds). Copernicus based his claim on the Latin text attributed to Thabit. Thabit published his observations of the Sun.
In mathematics, Thabit discovered an equation for determining the amicable numbers. He also wrote on the theory of numbers, and extended their use to describe the ratios between geometrical quantities, a step which the Greeks never took. Another important contribution Thabit made to geometry was his generalization of the Pythagorean theorem, which he extended from special right triangles to all triangles in general, along with a general proof.[2]
In physics, Thabit rejected the Peripatetic and Aristotelian notions of a “natural place” for each element. He instead proposed a theory of motion in which both the upward and downward motions are caused by weight, and that the order of the universe is a result of two competing attractions (jadhb): one of these being “between the sublunar and celestial elements”, and the other being “between all parts of each element separately”.[3]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thabit_ibn_Qurra
Another scientific development of renaissance was geography. Where did that come from?
“The Arabs added a great deal of knowledge to expand and correct the classical sources. There were some representatives of the West that produced geographical works of quality, such as the Syrian bishop Jacob of Edessa (633-708), but this paled in comparison to the virtual mountain of work published by Islamic writers of the Middle Ages (who were largely responsible for the foundations of knowledge present in later Western geography).[3]”
“In mathematical geography, Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī, around 1025, was the first to describe a polar equi-azimuthal equidistant projection of the celestial sphere.[25]”
“ohn J. O’Connor and Edmund F. Robertson write in the MacTutor History of Mathematics archive:
“Important contributions to geodesy and geography were also made by al-Biruni. He introduced techniques to measure the earth and distances on it using triangulation. He found the radius of the earth to be 6339.6 km, a value not obtained in the West until the 16th century. His Masudic canon contains a table giving the coordinates of six hundred places, almost all of which he had direct knowledge.”[31]”
“The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[32] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection.[33]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geography#Middle_Ages
Have you ever considered the world you live in today and where so many things you take for granted originate from? Human rights, hospitals, universities, academic degrees, science, you name it. Lets have a look:
“Islamic law also introduced “two fundamental principles to the West, on which were to later stand the future structure of law: equity and good faith”[citation needed], which was a precursor to the concept of pacta sunt servanda in civil law and international law. Another influence of Islamic law on the civil law tradition was the presumption of innocence, which was introduced to Europe by Louis IX of France soon after he returned from Palestine during the Crusades. Islamic law was based on the presumption of innocence from its beginning, as declared by the caliph Umar in the 7th century.[111]”
“A number of Islamic legal concepts on human rights were also adopted in European legal systems, including concepts such as the charitable trust, trusteeship of property, human dignity, dignity of labour[citation needed], condemnation of antisocial behavior, presumption of innocence, caring, women’s rights, privacy, juristic personality, individual freedom, equality before the law, non-retroactivity, limited sovereignty, tolerance[citation needed].”
“Since the publication of legal scholar John Makdisi’s “The Islamic Origins of the Common Law” in the North Carolina Law Review,[99] there has been controversy over whether English common law was inspired by medieval Islamic law.[105] Several scholars have argued that several fundamental common law institutions may have been adapted from similar legal institutions in Islamic law and jurisprudence, and introduced to England after the Norman conquest of England by the Normans, who conquered and inherited the Islamic legal administration of the Emirate of Sicily (see Arab-Norman culture).[99]”
“Europe adopted a number of educational, legal and scientific institutions from the Islamic world, including the public hospital (which replaced healing temples and sleep temples)[55] and psychiatric hospital,[56] the public library and lending library, the academic degree-granting university (see Madrasah), the astronomical observatory as a research institute[55] (as opposed to a private observation post as was the case in ancient times)[57] (see Islamic astronomy), the trust institution and charitable trust (see Waqf),[58][59] the agency and aval (Hawala),[60] and a variety of other such institutions.”
“If a university is assumed to mean an institution of higher education and research which issues academic degrees at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, then the Jami’ah which appeared from the 9th century were the first examples of such an institution.[98][100] The University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco is thus recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest degree-granting university in the world with its founding in 859 by Fatima al-Fihri.[101]”
“The origins of the doctorate dates back to the ijazat attadris wa ‘l-ifttd (“license to teach and issue legal opinions”) in the medieval Islamic legal education system, which was equivalent to the Doctor of Laws qualification and was developed during the 9th century after the formation of the Madh’hab legal schools. To obtain a doctorate, a student “had to study in a guild school of law, usually four years for the basic undergraduate course” and ten or more years for a post-graduate course.
Hospitals began as Bimaristans in the Islamic world and later spread to Europe during the Crusades, inspired by the hospitals in the Middle East. The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the Crusade between 1254-1260.[“
Here are some other contributions to think about:
“The method of algorism for performing arithmetic with Indian-Arabic numerals was developed by al-Khwarizmi (hence the word “Algorithm”) in the 9th century, and introduced in Europe by Leonardo Fibonacci (1170-1250).[8]”
“One of the most important scientific works to be translated was Ibn al-Haytham’s Book of Optics (1021), which initiated a revolution in optics[26] and visual perception,[27] and introduced the earliest experimental scientific method,[28] for which Ibn al-Haytham is considered the “father of modern optics”[29] and founder of experimental physics.[30][31] The Book of Optics laid the foundations for modern optics,[29] the scientific method,[28] experimental physics[30] and experimental psychology,[32] for which it has been ranked alongside Isaac Newton’s Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica as one of the most influential books in the history of physics.[33] The Latin translation of the Book of Optics influenced the works of many later European scientists, such as Robert Grosseteste, Roger Bacon, John Peckham, Witelo, William of Ockham, Leonardo da Vinci, Francis Bacon, René Descartes, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, and others.[34][35] The Book of Optics also laid the foundations for a variety of Western optical technologies, such as eyeglasses,[36] the camera,[37] the telescope and microscope, microscopy, retinal surgery, and robotic vision.[35]”
“Ibn Tufail’s Hayy ibn Yaqdhan was translated into Latin by Edward Pococke in 1671 and into English by Simon Ockley in 1708 and became “one of the most important books that heralded the Scientific Revolution.”[48] Ibn al-Baitar’s Kitab al-Jami fi al-Adwiya al-Mufrada also had an influence on European botany after it was translated into Latin in 1758.[49]”
“Dante Alighieri’s Divine Comedy, considered the greatest epic of Italian literature, derived many features of and episodes about the hereafter directly or indirectly from Arabic works on Islamic eschatology: the Hadith and the Kitab al-Miraj (translated into Latin in 1264 or shortly before[134] as Liber Scale Machometi, “The Book of Muhammad’s Ladder”) concerning Muhammad’s ascension to Heaven, and the spiritual writings of Ibn Arabi.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe#Islamic_sciences
Finally, for me it is not about a competition on history that is important. Important is to let history speak for itself and hopefully learn something from it. It is a fact that we owe Greeks a great deal in regards to our civilization. However, we owe a great deal to others too and we have to recognize that. My opinion is that the Greek and the Islamic civilizations (and I would tend to remotely include the Chinese too) are the most influential civilizations in the history of humankind. Why such great civilizations have become so denigrated as they are today, is a topic of another discussion. However, I will mention the two basic reasons in my estimation. Firstly, both for Muslims and Greeks, we arrogantly boast for the accomplishments of our ancestors instead of accomplishing something ourselves. Secondly, we live the revival of middle ages and jahalia period (the peiod of ignorance of Arabs, before the revelation of the Quran). This time, knowledge is not withheld by the church but by those who control the information and its flow (IT or Information Technology). And this time it is not the 300 idols traded by jahal Arab Mekkans that Quran set out to destroy. It is the financial interest of the few, in order to exploit people by creating idols for them to imitate. You probably don’t understand my last statement since (I assume) you don’t know much about islam, but most muslims who would read this, they would recognize it.
Since knowledge is filtered and directed, we need to research ourselves in order to find the truth. That takes time and time is unfortunately scarce in our stressy lifestyle. That is of course a choice we make.
Aleykum assalamu wa rahmatulahi wa barakatu
Brother Amir,
Thank you for your comment. I will keep that in mind next time.
Jazaak Allah Khair
OK I know my response is also long but I needed to address some of the issues raised.
Gerasimos I still maintain the main emphasis of my point at that is the Renaissance is a rebirth of the classical ideal. I agree in principal no nation or people are an island to themselves, through either war or trade we absorb ideas and concepts from others. How we read history depends on our own world view point. As I indicated earlier in terms of the sciences Islam did embrace earlier ideas and built upon them, however the Renaissance is not just about scientific accomplishments, but also artistic accomplishments. When Constaniople fell due to the Muslim Ottoman Turks many Greeks did flee to Italy, bringing with them Greek ideas as well as the Roman Empire of the East that only fell in 1453. The very cause of this fall was due to Muslim aggression otherwise why would the Greeks flee? So to argue the Muslim preserved Classical ideas is rather weak for they were the very cause of scholars feeing Constantinople, notice the article states,
“Thus the Greek emigres who reached Italy during the fifteenth century were by no means all scholars: they ranged from exiled royalty to carpenters and mercenaries. Yet there can be no doubt that some of them played an important part in spreading knowledge of the classical Greek language and ancient Greek literature in Italy. There was a good reason for this: reading classical Greek and even composing in the same style were an integral part of Byzantine higher education. Whereas in the West secular education had tended to die out in the early Middle Ages, in Byzantium it was sustained. In each generation, those who took their education beyond the age of fourteen would be instructed in the works of the ancient Greek poets, historians, dramatists and philosophers. Thus any educated Byzantine in the imperial service would have had a knowledge of these works which would have been the envy of many educated Italians,”
So yes, not all Greeks fleeing to Italy in the late 1400 were scholars, but a great many of them were also carpenters, artisans and others who brought the elegance of Byzantium and its Greek culture to cities like Venice. Also keep in mind poets, drama the visual arts as they existed in the Greek Byzantine tradition are foreign concepts in the Muslim world that’s why you don’t find the same type of artistic movements as you did in the Renaissance in the Islamic world.
Gerasimos you mention, “Truths need not negate each other but sometimes they do. Indeed, Greeks of Italy did contribute to the renaissance but not nearly as much as Muslims who introduced Greek ideas of philosophy and science to Europe, long before Byzantines fleeing to Italy.”
^^ How do you jump to this conclusion? Have you ever gone to Florence, Venice or Roman and look at Renaissance art and architecture, does that look more Islamic in nature than Classical Greek? Were Muslims more capable of translating Greek texts to the Italians than the Greeks were? Also the Muslims ignored all texts that were not of a scientific manner, so they had no reason to have copies of the Iliad or other ancient literature which also inspired artistic development during the Renaissance. The Byzantium Eastern Roman Empire did not see themselves as pagans however they spoke Greek, and thus their cultural identity gave them reason to preserve historical Greek texts which was a foreign concept to their Ottoman Muslim oppressors and something that would not have inspired them. The Italians however saw their legacy as being Roman and recognized the contributions the ancients Greeks had on their civilization not only by the way of science but also culture, history and the arts. In point of civilization, the Greeks were the predominant race in the Byzantine Empire. From the second half of the sixth century, Latin had ceased to be the language of the Government. The legislation eventually became thoroughly Greek, both in language and spirit. This knowledge then was passed over to the Italians which gave rise to reviving the ancient Classical Greco-Roman past.
Gerasimos you posted following link,
“The Byzantines, for whom Greek was the dominant language, made use of only parts of their classical Greek heritage, and were more interested in preserving Christian writings. Thus, for a long time in Europe after the execution of Boethius (one of the last writers with a good understanding of both Latin and Greek philosophy), there was a disregard for Greek ideas. Scribes often recycled old books, scraping off old, philosophical texts in order to create religious books.[citation needed] After a while, only a few monasteries had Greek works, and even fewer of them copied these works …..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_Greek_philosophical_ideas_in_the_Middle_Ages:
^^ This is a very skewed view of Byzantine Church history, while in the West many ‘pagan’ texts were lost prior to the 1400s much of these works were preserved at Constantinople as well as Mistra and other Byzantine cities otherwise how do you explain the fact that after the fall of Constantinople many Greek texts started popping up all over Italy. Here’s another footnote, just as Italy benefited from the fall of Constantinople so to did Moscow which became known as the “third” Rome after Constantinople the ‘second’ Rome fell. Moscow was know the defender of Orthodoxy, Greek scholars also fled over there but why was there no Renaissance in Moscow as there was in Rome? Simple answer, like the Islamic states, the Russians didn’t see the value the ideals of the ancient Greek texts that dealt with philosophy, artistic reform and so forth until centuries later when Peter the Great would embrace Western European reforms.
So to recap without embracing all classical thought and ideals a Renaissance cannot come into existence. Simply because Islam had translated scientific Greek text or Russia gained orginal Greek Bible manuscripts neither of those societies had the artistic classical revival called the Renaissance which took place in Europe.
Lastly Gerasimos also wrote, If a university is assumed to mean an institution of higher education and research which issues academic degrees at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, then the Jami’ah which appeared from the 9th century were the first examples of such an institution
^^ Yes but you are ignoring the fact that 1300 years earlier The Academy of Athens was first opened by Plato in 387 BC. As well the Byzantine Emperor Theodosius II opened the University of the palace hall of Magnaura (Πανδιδακτήριον της Μαγναύρας)in 425 AD.
Finally I do agree “However, we owe a great deal to others too and we have to recognize that. My opinion is that the Greek and the Islamic civilizations (and I would tend to remotely include the Chinese too) are the most influential civilizations in the history of humankind.”
Hello, I am currently looking into my own Christian Religion the same way, and I am considering converting to Islam. Like you, I have plans to meet with a priest and an Imam as well. However, I find it so difficult to interpret that pretty much all of my ancetors went to Hell based on the Islamic religion. What about the people who dedicate thier lives to God in the same ways, however, ‘falsly’ worship him by blindly sticking with their religion? They are good people at heart and they love God. What about the Jews who were slaughtered by the Germans during WWII, they all went to hell after? Most people are ignorant in the sense they do not step outside of thier boundaries and what they were tought from their families. They all go to hell bc of that? What about the Irish people, the English, how many of them are actually muslim, for example. Its so hard to believe even though the religion says Allah is most forgiving closer to you than your mother. Also, how do they look at science? Do they believe Adam and Eve were the first people? Do they believe of existence people dating back 12-13,000 years ago after the Ice age? I really like the religion of Islam, my father tells me to stick with my family and what I know. I am terrified of abandoning them. What about miracles performed from religous people outside of Islam? Also, how did the spread of
Islam really happen? The Quran forbids vioence unless it is a self defense mechanism. Is that how Mohammed did it? What about the Turks during the Ottoman Empire who enslaved Greeks for over 400 years, persecuting them and kiling them if they did not convert? If its against their religion why would they do such terrible acts? Didn’t they know they were going to hell? lol so many questions. maybe you can help.
Hello Evangelia and welcome to our website! You came to the right place because you are asking a lot of great questions.
I think this will be a long discussion so I have moved it over to our forum here: http://www.greeksrethink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=848
If we can continue there, that would be great. I’ll be back insha Allah when I get a chance to answer all your questions but in the meantime, others are free to jump in. Don’t worry, it will all make sense very soon, God willing.
p.s. SOS and Gerasimos, I also suggest to move your conversation to the forum.
Son Of Sparta,
I read your comment and I have a few things to say, as well as the comment I said I would post, regarding your two first statements. Would you like to move the discussion to the forum or do you prefer to keep it between the two of us? Either way we should remove it from here as Iman suggested, because it’s off topic and a topic on its own.
I don’t mind if the topic is moved.
Gerasimos I forgot to mention I prefer topics open to everyone in the forum who wish to contribute their thoughts and opinions.
Δεν υπάρχει κανείς μα κανείς καθαρόαιμος έλληνας μουσουλμάνος. Απλά τα πράματα, να επισημαίνετε ότι προέρχεστε από ανατολικές χώρες και το ότι 1-2 και φυσικά παραπάνω γενιές, προέρχεστε από εκεί. Ο έλληνας ή θα είναι χριστιανός ή απλά θα είναι δηλωμένος άθεος ή ακόμα πιο απλά, σκεπτικιστής. Κάποιοι δεν έχουν πειστεί ότι υπάρχει θεότητα. Ο μουσουλμανισμός είναι έτη φωτός μαρκιά απ’το πετσί του έλληνα. Το ότι γεννηθήκατε κάποιοι στην ελλάδα, δε σημαίνει και πολλά, έτσι;
Ειλικρινά κανέναν δεν έχω σκοπό να θίξω. Να λέμε τα πράματα με το όνομά τους. Και δεν ήρθα εδώ με επιθετικές διαθέσεις. Βεβαίως-βεβαίως τώρα αν υποθέσω ότι κάποιοι απ’εδώ δηλώνουν ότι είναι και κάτοικοι της Νέας Υόρκης, βλέπουμε εντελώς ξεκάθαρα ότι, δεν γνωρίζουν καν ελληνικά, πόσο μάλλον για τους άλλους που μιλούν αραβική γλώσσα. Αν αυτοί είναι έλληνες, τότε εγώ είμαι ο Ιωσήφ Στάλιν.
Καλώς τον.
Σαν κι εσένα πέρασαν πολλοί με τον ίδιο σκοπό.
Όλοι εμείς που δεν είμαστε καθαρόαιμοι Έλληνες.
Κρίμα και πάλι κρίμα.
Αν ρίξεις μια πιο προσεχτική ματιά θα καταλάβεις ότι δεν συμβαίνει αυτο που θες να νομίζεις. εδώ είμαστε Έλληνες είτε αρέσει είτε όχι, εκτός από τους ξένους επισκέπτες μας.
Πράγματι το Ισλάμ είναι κοντύτερα στο πετσί του Έλληνα αλλά αυτό το διαπιστώνει κανείς αν κάνει τον κόπο να μελετήσει απλώς τα βασικά του Ισλάμ.
Φέρε το Ελληνόμετρό σου να μετρηθούμε όλοι μας….
Κρίμα δεν ειναι;;; ακόμα και όλα αυτά τα προσβλητικά για τους Έλληνες του εξωτερικού;;; Έτσι είναι οι Έλληνες;
Για διάβασε λίγο τι είναι οι Έλληνες και φέρε αποδείξεις ότι οι “καθαρόαιμοι Έλληνες” είναι οπωσδήποτε ορθόδοξοι. Και ποιοι είναι οι καθαρόαιμοι Έλληνες; Οι Πόντιοι, οι Κρήτες, οι Θράκες είναι μέσα; οι νησιώτες; οι Κύπριοι;;;
Και κάτι ακόμη. Είναι άραγε ο χριστιανισμός ο φυσικός διάδοχος της αρχαίας εθνικής θρησκείας; μήπως όντως δεν είναι έτσι;
Φαντάσου και να ήθελες να μας θίξεις….
Άντε Χρόνια Πολλά σε όλους!
Νίκο,
είπες “Δεν υπάρχει κανείς μα κανείς καθαρόαιμος έλληνας μουσουλμάνος”.
Και όμως υπα΄ρχουν. Δεν είμαστε από ανατολικές χώρες αλλά καθαρόαιμοι Έλληνες και δεν θα μας πεις εσύ το τι είμαστε.
I had hoped the debate between Macedonian and ImanK would be more productive. It doesn’t seem like the main question for the debate was every really addressed or answered. Does anyone know where I can find any other debates between Agnostic and Islam? Thank You.
Welcome to the website Zaynab. Sorry about that. These comments were not meant to be a debate, it was more of a conversion story that turned into a Q/A. I don’t really know of a debate online between an agnostic and Islam.