Με επιστολές ζητούν τζαμί και νεκροταφείο; Muslims in Athens upset at mosque delays
February 4, 2009 by Anna
Source: Enet.gr
(English article below)
Το τζαμί και το μουσουλμανικό νεκροταφείο είναι δύο θέματα που απασχολούν μεγάλο μέρος του πληθυσμού της Αθήνας και όχι μόνο, καθώς εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες κάτοικοι του λεκανοπεδίου είναι μουσουλμάνοι. Ωστόσο, στην πράξη και τα δύο έχουν παγώσει. Οι μουσουλμάνοι της Αθήνας με επιστολές προς τους υπουργούς Παιδείας και Θρησκευμάτων Αρη Σπηλιωτόπουλο και Εσωτερικών Προκόπη Παυλόπουλο τα φέρνουν και πάλι στην επικαιρότητα σε μια προσπάθεια να προκαλέσουν την ευαισθητοποίησή τους. Οι δύο επιστολές εστάλησαν στις 27 Ιανουαρίου.
Η Μουσουλμανική Ενωση Ελλάδος χαρακτηρίζει και τα δύο θέματα μείζονος σημασίας και περιγράφει τους κινδύνους που προκαλεί η στάση της κυβέρνησης. Ειδικότερα για το θέμα του τζαμιού, που σύμφωνα με την τελευταία απόφαση προβλέπεται ν’ ανεγερθεί στην περιοχή του Ελαιώνα, εξηγούν μία από τις σοβαρές παραμέτρους του προβλήματος: «Η αθρόα και ανεξέλεγκτη εισροή μεταναστών από τα μουσουλμανικά κράτη πολλαπλασιάζουν τον μουσουλμανικό πληθυσμό μεταφέροντας μαζί τους τις όποιες ιδέες και διδαχές που δεν έχουν τη βάση ενός επίσημου φορέα. Ετσι, καθώς δεν υπάρχει επίσημο τέμενος στην Αθήνα, ο καθείς μπορεί να δημιουργήσει έναν άτυπο χώρο προσευχής όπως κάναμε όλοι μας στο παρελθόν, με τη διαφορά ότι δεν έχουν ως κέντρο αναφοράς την αρμονική συνύπαρξη των ανθρώπων και το καλό της Ελλάδας, αλλά προωθούν τις δικές τους βλέψεις για ίδιο όφελος».
Σ’ ό,τι αφορά το θέμα του μουσουλμανικού νεκροταφείου, για το οποίο η Εκκλησία της Ελλάδος επί αρχιεπισκοπίας Χριστοδούλου έχει παραχωρήσει έκταση στο Σχιστό, γράφουν προς τον υπουργό Εσωτερικών ότι ενώ όλα τα αρμόδια στελέχη της κυβέρνησης τους διαβεβαιώνουν ότι το θέμα έχει διευθετηθεί, δεν έχει γίνει απολύτως τίποτα. Και αφού τονίζουν ότι πρόκειται για μείζονος σημασίας θέμα, κυρίως για την αρμονική συνύπαρξη όλων των ανθρώπων που ζουν σε μια πολυπολιτισμική κοινωνία, προειδοποιώντας επί της ουσίας για όσα μπορεί να ακολουθήσουν, προσθέτουν: «Οι μουσουλμάνοι της Αθήνας δικαίως βιώνουν το αίσθημα της ματαίωσης και της απόρριψης καθώς δεν έχουν τη δυνατότητα να προσεύχονται, να παντρεύονται, να κηδεύονται αξιοπρεπώς».
Source: The Earth Times
Muslims living in Athens voice displeasure over mosque delay
Muslims living in Athens voiced their displeasure Monday over a delay in the construction of a mosque for tens of thousands of Muslims who have been using abandoned factories and converted coffee shops as makeshift prayer houses for years. The president of the Muslim Union of Greece said the construction of a state-funded mosque and cemetery in Elaionas near the centre of Athens has been faced with countless delays.
In 2007 the Greek government unveiled a bill for the construction of the mosque, saying it would be built on a large plot of land owned by the Greek Navy.
According to the bill, the new Athens mosque will be run by a non- profit organisation staffed by Greek state officials and members of the capital’s Muslim communities. The head imam will be appointed by a government-backed committee and be paid by the ministry.
A previous proposal to build a mosque near Athens’ International Airport ahead of the 2004 Olympics was blocked following objections by residents and opposition from the Greek Orthodox Church, which disagreed with the location and plans for funding from Saudi Arabia.
“There are apprxomately 150 illegal mosques operating across the Greek capital and this cannot continue,” said Naim Elgantur, President of the Muslim Union of Greece.
“The authorities have told us to send them certain documents which we have sent them twice, and which they claim to have lost.”
Athens is the only European capital which does not have a proper mosque or cemetery to serve its more than 300,000 Muslim residents, mainly from various parts of northern Africa and Pakistan.
At present, the only operating mosques in Greece are in the northeastern region of Thrace, home to some 100,000 Muslims.
The largest makeshift mosque currently exists in the Athens district of Moschato. The mosque, based inside a disused factory measuring 800 square meters, has reportedly been funded by a Saudi Arabian donor.
Here’s some more media coverage on the topic:
http://www.tovima.gr/default.asp?pid=2&artid=253343&ct=1
http://digital.tanea.gr/Default.aspx?d=20090202&nid=11379743
http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=43514
(Skip to middle of the video after 30 min)
It is the most tragic violation of religious rights that I have heard until now. After the UN has put forward that the Greek government is NOT adhering to religious rights as it should be doing, by allowing Greek muslims, as well as other muslims within the country to freely practice their religion in a DECENT place of worship(and helping to promote such things), we have to result in such basic animal treatment. I am furious. We need to demonstrate!
OR we need to go higher than the GREEK government and go to the EU court of human rights. This needs action, and it needs action fast.
Or what about lawyers on our behalf.
Do not go so extreme, because the serious movement for building the Athens masjid started at 2004, by now we have done the right steps to succeed this time, but running like a turtle. The state will say it is not a matter of legal violation, it was lack of organizing on behalf of the Muslim Community of Athens, all we need is a clear dream, work,, all united for this project ,and en sha Allah will happen.
mariamELLAS perhaps we you make your way to the European Court you can put in a word for Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey. Lets look back at history; In January 1923, Greece and Turkey signed the Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations.These included exchanges and expulsion of about 500,000 Turks from Greece and about 1.500.000 Greeks from Asia Minor, Anatolia. The region of Thrace and Constantinople was not effected by the population exchange the treaty allowed the minorities to live in their local regions and freely practise their religion. In November 1923, Turkey signed the Treaty of Lausanne, which put an official end to the Greco-Turkish War and secured international recognition, with minor changes, of Turkey’s present borders. In addition, Articles 37-45 of the treaty obligated both Turkey and Greece to grant and respect a broad array of rights for the Greek minority of Constantinople and the Turkish minority of Thrace. But since 1955, however, the Greek minority in Constantinople came under severe attack engineered by the Turkish government of then Prime Minister Adnan Menderes, destroying an estimated 3-4,000 shops and precipitated the exodus of tens of thousands of ethnic Greeks from the city. On the other hand the Muslim minority in Thrace was allowed to grow in Greece. In 1922, the Muslim minority left in Thrace numbered approximately 86,000 people and according to the 1991 census 97,604 . So while there was over 300,000-strong Greek Orthodox minority in 1924 in Constantinople today the number is just around 5,000 (2005 census). Lets not forget the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople has to be a Turkish citizen, yet the Turks have nearly expelled all Greeks in that country and closed down the Theological School of Halki! See my point!!! So perhaps the next time you scream discriminination and rights you don’t forget your fellow Greeks on the other side of the border who truly got the shaft.
PS: I would welcome anyones’ thoughts on the plight of the Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey.
Ah ok so the problem u are saying is on our side? Through lack of people?
Well, SonOfSparta, have they no voice of their own? If Turkey does nothing for the muslims in Thrace, why should the Greeks do anything for the Greeks in Turkey? I mean, we have our own problem, and we will try to solve it by our own, and so should they. They are not our responsibility and we are not theirs.
Again and again, I see, division and conflict, between Greeks of different religions!
SonofSparta, these people here in this site,are not Turks, but are Greeks! Greek brothers and sisters who want their own place of worship!
I read on this website about the plight of the Palestinian people, many here including myself empathize and sympathize with what is unjust. Even though I am not of Palestinian ethnicity or a Muslim I still feel for them. So then since everyone here is Greek, but not of the same religion, I ask you who are Muslim or of other faith do you not feel any sympathy or at the very least empathy for the Greek minority of Constantinople and for the injust the Chruch and people have suffered?
SonOfSparta, Greece has taken no action against what you say, so what makes you think that I have the responsibility to do anything about it, except because of being a Greek as you are? It’s not only us who should go do something about it. Why tell us to take responsibility for someone that you care no cent about, whereas you will be sitting in front of a pc, just telling us what to do? If their rights are being violated, why don’t they themselves open their mouths? And why doesn’t Greece say anything? Why should it be us? I don’t understand your logic…
Amir Abdullah you have no problem voicing your concerns in this forum about Greece or the Palestians and other matters.. You state you are Greek, yet you are silent about the Greek minority in Turkey, why is that?
Why are you silent about the muslim minorities in Greece (Thrace)? For that matter, why are the Turks who converted to christianity silent about the muslim minorities in Thrace?
You see, it is not that I feel obligated to be silent, and I would talk if I could, but the matter is elsewhere. The Greeks of Turkey are not my direct need, or let’s say, objective. My rights in Greece are at the moment of greater importance, and after that, I might think of putting into consideration other objectives. And, say I go to the european council, can’t the Greeks of Turkey do the same if their human rights are being violated?
Amir Abdullah your very lack of showing any empathy to the plight of the Greek Orthodox community in Constantinople speaks volumes. You can’t find anything positive to say, so keep ranting about how your rights are violated in Greece and ignore the Greek community in Turkey.
What empathy do you show? I ask you again, why do you expect us to do something for them? Do we owe them anything? Why do the turkish converts to christianity nothing for the muslims in Thrace? Don’t you get it? What is so evil in not putting them into priority? I don’t understand what you are trying to point out!
Amir Abdullah wrote; I ask you again, why do you expect us to do something for them? Do we owe them anything?
Yes, you and me, all Greeks owe them, for keeping Greek culture alive in a society that is bent on whipping them out. What I am trying to point out is that being Greek by definition means you should at very least have some empathy for your fellow countryman who is of the same ethnicity as you. This not about Turks but about Greek brothers and sisters, so as Greeks we all share a kinship, how can you not feel for those who have been wronged, who stuggle to keep their community alive in Turkey.
Funny that you could use only that part from what I said to attack me. Really a pitty if you ask me, that you have to attack me in the first place. It’s almost as if you are desperate into wanting to make us look bad anyway possible, even for matters that have no connection at all to the present ones. Really, you confuse me my brother…
=> Now, yes! SonofSparta, you talk the … language of truth.
I totally, agree with what you’re saying
“Yes, you and me, all Greeks owe them, for keeping Greek culture alive in a society that is bent on whipping them out. What I am trying to point out is that being Greek by definition means you should at very least have some empathy for your fellow countryman who is of the same ethnicity as you. This not about Turks but about Greek brothers and sisters, so as Greeks we all share a kinship, how can you not feel for those who have been wronged, who stuggle to keep their community alive in Turkey. ”
=>But, you have to see, that, Greek muslims of Greek descent have to have their own rights respected. For instance, in Syria in the city of Hamidye..there is a population of Cretan muslims, that the Greek state do not recognize them as Greeks, and do not give them, Greek passports, because, they are Muslims!. But, these people (amazingly!) speak Greek and have Greek identity, better than all of us here!
So, we Greeks of all religions, have to support every Greek whose human rights of religious and Greek civilisational identity, is endagered by any state’s suppression and fear of being Greek. Do you agree?
SonOfSparta, I can empathize with those Greeks, I can empathize with the Tibetans and the Palestinians, I can empathize with the Chechenians, I can empathize with many peoples, and they don’t have to be Greek to gain my emparthy, but still, in my life, there are some priorities. I start of with making my own a safe basis in my life, from where on I can perhaps later help others two who are unjustly treated, but for the sake of God, I’m just a human! Don’t expect me to do the things you never did and never will do! Give me advice on how to be just, yes, but don’t command me as if you are blackmailing me (“help out the Greeks of Turkey, or else, there is no Mosque for you in Athens”). The way that you are trying to tell me things is wrong, and this is my only objection. I never said I don’t show empathy for anyone, instead, you put such words in my mouth, just to be able to attack me. Is this the way of a God fearing person?
Son of Sparta,
i will answer u because u initially directed this to me, even though the other people in their answers have covered wat i would have initially answered you.
To have a greek cemetry is crucial, because the day one greek person dies who happens to be a muslim, where will he be buried. So this topic interests me directly, and so therefore I believe we should do something about it. The same with the tzamia in greece.
As brother amir said, if they greek minority in turkey want to do something about their issue, then they should. AND i have ALL THE sympathy in the world for them. I might actually mention it to the european court of human rights for them, if they asked me to. I have no problem.
I wonder if they would also stand up for my violated rights if I asked them to?
pierra wrote;
So, we Greeks of all religions, have to support every Greek whose human rights of religious and Greek civilisational identity, is endagered by any state’s suppression and fear of being Greek. Do you agree?
As Greeks we should self identify the other ethnicity and/or kinship. The state should enforce equal recognition under the law and protect individual rights so long as they don’t infringe on other rights. The reason and this is only my opinion that the Greek state is dragging its feet with the Mosque is purely political, both domestic and international. Rather than repeating what I wrote earlier I will just quickly mention the 1923 treaty with Turkey concerning the population exchange and the fact that in 1955 the terms of that treaty were broken by Turkey. What does this do to the Muslim population in Greece you ask? Well unfortunately it puts everyone in a state of limbo. How is that? Well as I mentioned earlier the Muslim population grows and flourishes in Thrace while the Greek population that was supposed to be left alone in Constantinople goes from about 300,000 to just about 5,000. Here’s the delma, if the Greek state can’t enforce political presure on Turkey to change its policies what is left of the Greek community and the Church will be lost forever. Turkey wants in on the EU and this will be the only window of opportunity to save the Greek community in Constantinople. Turkey will only comply if Greece make concessions. What would this concessions be? Well things like opening up more Mosques and other Muslim conerns. Now you’re thinking well why doesn’t Greece just stop dragging it’s feet at resolve the Turkish problem later. Here’s the problem if Greece does that, then Turkey would have no insentive to do anything about the Greek minority in Turkey because Greece won’t be ‘giving up anything’ in return. See my point? A bit complicated but IMO it is the main delma. The Muslim community in Athens who is primarily made up of immigrants is unawre to a degree of the history and doesn’t understand the delay. Can I empathize with them? Yes I can, but I have to look at the big picture as well, even if for the short term things are in limbo the statues quo between Greece and Turkey and their minorities has to change especially within the context of the EU.
Now I would welcome any other political theories/analysis on this subject.
Aside from the political I find the question that I asked concerning empathy was my attmpt to see if forum members were capable of feeling the plight of other Greeks who are in many ways as in the same situation as you only in an opposite religious setting.
son of sparta ωραια η τοποθετηση σου.
Δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί πρέπει να απολογηθούμε για τις παραβιάσεις δικαιωμάτων που γίνονται στην Τουρκία. Δεν είμαστε Τούρκοι αλλά Έλληνες μουσουλμάνοι με έμφαση στη θρησκεία και όχι στην εθνικότητα. Δεν είμαστε εθνικιστές
DEN EISTE ETHNIKISTES OK ALLA ANTRHOPOI? I SOSTI ANTHROPI PU AGAPANE ALLILUS, OPOS TON EAFTO TUS, ANEXARTITOS THRISKIAS, PREPI NA NIAZONTE GIA TUS SINANTROPUS TUS KE NA TO DIHNUN . POSO MALLON PU AFTI PU PARAVIAZUN TA DIKAIOMATA TON EKI ANTROPON , PARANOMA, KE ENANTIA STI ARHES TU ISLAM, INE MUSULMANI.
αδερφοι,τι σχεση έχει το τζαμί της αθήνας με την κατάσταση των ελλήνων της τουρκίας?οποιοσδήποτε εδώ στο site δείχνει συμπάθεια στους αδικημένους είτε αυτοί είναι τα θύματα του τουρκικού πογρόμ στην πόλη,είτε είναι οι παλεστίνιοι, είτε είναι η μουσουλμάνοι της θράκης είτε είναι οι μουσουλμάνοι του κασμίρ…..αλλά τα 2 θέματα δεν συνδέονται.το τζαμί της αθήνας απευθύνεται σε θρησκευτική ομάδα, μουσουλμλάνους, όχι σε εθνική.αναμενόμενο είναι λοιπόν να προσεύχονται εκεί και έλληνες και μετανάστες.είτε αυτοί είναι αλβανοί, είτε είναι αιγύπτιοι.
dikio ehis isa, apologume.
i do have empathy for any greek anywhere who is suffering anything..
I also as a greek person, have empathy for alot of other issues.
Since we are on the subject of empathy here are afew others :-
1) freeing Tibet
the orphans in palestine, lebanon, and all other parts of the globe
2) saving the whales
3) saving the p0lar bears
4) saving the orangutangs and tigers
5) ending child slavery and child labour
6) kindnapping of young women and making them prostitutes
7) the diamond trade in africa
9) the victims of bush fires IN GREECE aswell as australia and elsewhere
10) illegal governments all over the world
u see being a greek doesnt make me apathetic to other people’s suffering. I would be a voice to ANYONES suffering, so long as they have a right. Can you say the same Son of Sparta?
p.s i dont know why there is a smily face on the point about orphans,,,,,it was a typo
mariamELLAS I have a great deal of empathy for a wide variety of causes, from people who suffer from extreme poverty to war to the environment. I also tried to explain in detail as to the injustices faced by Greeks in Constantinople. It seems no one in this forum knows how to address this issue. On the one hand everyone goes out their way to indicate they are both Muslim and Greek, that this is not a conflict, so when I ask if they can empathize with the minority Christian Greeks in Constantinople then all of a sudden nationality, is no longer an important issue, how convenient.
PS: If you want to have a good laugh as to how the Turkish government is cracking down on people who sell pork in Turkey follow this link, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7368020.stm ,
seems the Muslim authorities in Turkey can’t even stomach Greeks eating Pork.
Hellooo! Never heard of the “greath idea” of Greece, being only for political (t)reasons?! Get over it, we are not at war with Turkey, and they do their best to enter the European Union! As Jesus (aleyhi salam!) said!: “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”, so, if you are the one who wants right to prevail, what is stopping you? And very very possibly, we will follow you, ade, SonOfSparta mporeis, esy mas odigeis! Show your great sympathy!
So, you reveal the fact that you indeed came along to get into a fight, and start attacking. What is the matter with you people? Don’t you show any sympathy for yourselves? Why fall so low?
forgive me sonofsparta, perhaps i misunderstood u then, i didnt realise u were simply asking how we feel on issues which also pertain to other greeks.
Perhaps i thought that ur tone was slightly sarcastic when u mentioned, “while ur at the european court, mention the situation of the greeks in turkey”,,,,and so i thought that u were trying to make out that i should keep my mouth shut on issues that i may feel strongly about at this point, and focus rather on other issues.
ok now i understand ur point. And it is a very good one. Although with greece next door, I wonder sometimes why no one has taken this to the european court of human rights until now. if indeed they do feel there has been a violation.
hehehe on the issue of the pork…..well…..i would feel kinda nautious if i saw someone eating a DOG or a CAT. its the same thing. You just dont eat that stuff, its bad for you…..
but that stuff is not what we are discussing here.
Look where are we stand after a human claim for dignity and religious freedom in Athens. Do you realize that on one hand Son of Sparta tries to say that the Muslims of Athens who are more than 700.000 do not deserve a mosque & a cemetery because the Greek minority in Turkey is oppressed, and on the other hand he imagines himself as a dominator of those muslims of Athens and will use them as a weapon against Turkey to gain the rights of the oppressed minority. Hello? is this a science fiction movie I am watching here? People are people, all equal and all different. Thank God that in real life I have never met such attitude!
And what actions have you done for this oppressed minority? Give us your tracks and we will help you on your effort, I give you my word, but do something, don’t let them like this!
The Greeks of Constantinople shrank from a population of 300,000 in the year 1923 to barely 5,000 today. Turkey at first guaranteed the Greeks their rights to stay within the city back in 1923 but by 1955 slowly confiscated nearly all Greek Church lands, closed down the theological school and made life so difficult for Greeks there that today there is hardly a trace of them. The Greeks founded Byzantium around 671-662 BC later re-named Constantinople, there has always been a Grek presence up untill the mass expulsion in 1955. The Muslims in Athens today have not even been there for a generation, yet the Greeks who have been in Constantinople for over 2 thousand years are denied a great deal of their rights. You want Greece to accommodate your religious institutions while Muslim Turkey denies Greek Christians their religious institutions. There is this myth going around that Muslims tolerate Christians, yet time and time again we see in cities like Constantinople, Christians the targets of discrimination. As I indicated above there has to be justice for the Greek Orthodox Church in Turkey and the Greek minority community in Turkey.
PS As for Amir Abdullah’s comment about the “greath idea” or Μεγάλη Ιδέα of Greece was concept of Greek nationalism that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks, since large Greek populations after the Greek independence in 1832, still lived under the Ottoman rule including Constantinople. It’s funny that you are making the same arguement the Turks make whenever anyone points out the present day discrimination of the Greek Orthodox community in Constantinople. How many generations of Greeks have to be treated like dirt? Have you ever spoken to any Greek from Constantinople and listened to their personal stories? Why can’t the Greeks have justice in Constantinople? Why does the patriarch have to be under the control of the Turkish state? Why is the theological school closed. Why are church properties confiscated? Why were Greek shops looted (1955) and the people never compensated for their lost property? Why was the great cathedral of Hagia Sophia turned into a mosque? Why the bloody injustice? Why? Are you really that indifferent to the tragedy that befell the Greeks of the city? This is problem I find with the Muslim community, no willingness to acknowledge this utter injustice. We cannont move forward as a community until the issue of the Greek Orthodox minority is resolved in Constantinople, otherwise all we will have is Western nations accommodating the Muslims minorities and the Muslims nations inturn not doing anything for their Christian minorities. This is hypocrisy, either justice for all, or no justice at all.
“It’s funny that you are making the same arguement the Turks make whenever anyone points out the present day discrimination of the Greek Orthodox community in Constantinople.”
So you think that you are more “just” than the Turks? You think that the Christians from among the Greeks did things that where not “as injust” as the Turks? I’ll remind you that the idea of nationalism in the Balcans, was born in Greece, and after that, others embraced such an idea too. So, don’t ever think that this conflict is one sided! It’s not that we would get the mosque if those Greeks in Constantinople would get their rights back! You know that there is a whoooooooooooole chain of things that have to be done to resolve the WHOLE history between the !!!Romans!!! and the Ottomans.
By the way, why are you saying such weird things like the Greeks founded Byzantium and Constantinople?! Was it not the Romans who did this? Who were so obsessed with the Greeks that they wanted to become “Greek-Romans”? Don’t give the credit to things in such a clumsy way…
Anyway, back to the point, to end this topic once and for all. You say that the Greeks in Constantinople have a history of thousands of years, while we, not even a few, so, what I would say to that is: You had all the time (2 thousand years
) to help your fellow Christians who lived in Turkey, who lost their rights because a stupid guy called Venizelos wanted to per se conquer the whole of minor Asia, which of course outraged the Turks (what could be more logical, since the Greeks where slaughtering, and burning people inside their houses, and so forth?!), and so, the Turks attacked back, and became more cruel regarding the rights of Greeks in Turkey, because of these Greek populations, in a way, betraying their own country, which at that time, was Turkey, which did preserve their rights quite well (I mean, why do you think that Venizelos wanted Asia Minor in the first place?! Because it flourished economically, that’s why!), and this was of course seen at least as treason, if not worse.
. BUT…!!! I first want my place for prayer, and helping the Greeks in Turkey will not be my thanks or my “payback”, rather, a whole other issue, just because, it’s not the same issue. That is what I’m trying to say all along, but, for some reason, you (most probably unconsciously), have some hands covering your ears…I think it’s your own hands.
Now, where you had 2 thousand years as you claim, you had no chance in helping these people out with the Turkish government and their mistreatement, so, what the heck do you think that I can do more? Did you know that Turkey forbade the Hijab in the universities? So, are they fighting the Greek minorities, or are they fighting any kind of religion? And if they fight against any kind of religion, why the heck would they listen to me? You see? It’s not only you who can’t do nothing about them! It’s not me either! It’s both of us, who have to do something, and there lies the secret
SonsOfSparta, thanks for enlightening us with some history. Two questions:
1) What action have you personally taken to fix this situation?
2) How many of these people do you know personally and can you invite them to our forum so we can hear from them directly?
Thank you.
Son of Sparta,
you said “You want Greece to accommodate your religious institutions while Muslim Turkey denies Greek Christians their religious institutions”
and i can not understand why we (the muslims in Greece) should be rwsponsible for this. Yes, Turkey should respect the christian population but we wiill not apologize if Turkey has it’s own national politica (and Turkey is a Kemalist state and not a muslim).
We are not Turks and it is not our mistake if Turkey and people like you are fasist and nationalists. Sorry for my words but you insist to mention about Turkey and nations. Islam doesn’t recognise no nations but in Islam all people from all nations are equal
ImanK wrote Two questions:
1) What action have you personally taken to fix this situation?
2) How many of these people do you know personally and can you invite them to our forum so we can hear from them directly?
1) Education
2) First of I did know people who have since passed away who were from Constantinople. My priest from childhood up until my twenties (he has long since passed away) studied and lived in Constantinople. I heard many times from him directly as to the plight of the Greeks in the city. More than any other person who I met his words touched me , he was also a great scholar not just in Christianity but also in history, philosophy and literaturte. There are others in my past who I did volunteer work with that came from Constantinople as well I have worked with Greeks who grew up in Alexandria, Egypt. More recently I met an elderly lady who also grew up in Constantinople As you are aware I enjoy studying history and there are many stories that go unwritten. We cannot change the past, but we should learn from it. What history has taught the Greeks comming into contact witth the Ottoman Turks, is that our language, our culture can be eradicated, look at Smyrni and other parts of Turkey were the Greek minority has all but disappeared. So fine perhaps its better one people on one side of the Aegean another on the other side, so that fights don’t break out. Having said that, there will be from time to time minorities. The treaty of Lausanne was orginally drafted 1923 to protect to 2 large religious minority groups between Greece and Turkey. As I pointed out, that treaty was broken in 1955 by Turkey. So again the main delma, how do we protect minority rights after this treaty was broken.
Today the US and EU says nothing to Turkey because they need a “Muslim” ally. Also until recently, Turkey and Israel are strong allies, they both have minorities they want to get rid off and support each other’s injustices. So how do we stop these injustices? It’s actually not rocket science, all we have to is to agree on equality for minorities. A new treaty between Greece and Turkey has to be put in place regarding our minorities. If only one side does this, like Greece, then we in fact would be putting the nail on the coffin of the Greek minority of Constantinople. Why? Because after the last Greeks are forced out, Turkey will not be compelled do anything for the Christian Greek minority. Too many Greeks have suffered leaving their homes and places of birth fleeing from Turkey. In fact the head of Eastern Christendom, the Patriarch cannot do anything freely, for at any time the Turkish state can stop his action. Now you sit and truly think of that! Imagine if your spirtual leaders had limited authority under a state with a different religious tradition. But you do understand that, with the way you feel you are treated. So lets correct the problem. If everyone here wants freedom, shouldn’t freedom be allowed for all Greeks? If freedom is only allowed for one group and not the other, does this not eventually lead to bloodshed? If we want to avoid the disasters of the past, we have to declare justice as universal and not just for one group.
Finally, what we as Greeks owe to our community in Constantinople, to our society, and for myself to my religion is to see that justice eventually triumphs, that an entire group of people is never wiped-out and forgotten in the pages of a history book.
Amir Abdullah wrote
By the way, why are you saying such weird things like the Greeks founded Byzantium and Constantinople?! Was it not the Romans who did this?
Amir your comments reveal you need a refresher course in history, the city of Byzantium named after their king Byzas was found by Greeks between 671-662 BC hundreds of years before the Roman Emperor Constantine moved his capital there and renamed the city after himself in the year 330 AD. The reason it is called the Byzantine Empire is because that was the original Greek name of the city.
Amir wrote
to help your fellow Christians who lived in Turkey, who lost their rights because a stupid guy called Venizelos wanted to per se conquer the whole of minor Asia, which of course outraged the Turks (what could be more logical, since the Greeks where slaughtering, and burning people inside their houses, and so forth?!), and so, the Turks attacked back, and became more cruel regarding the rights of Greeks in Turkey, because of these Greek populations, in a way, betraying their own country, which at that time, was Turkey, which did preserve their rights quite well (I mean, why do you think that Venizelos wanted Asia Minor in the first place?! Because it flourished economically, that’s why!), and this was of course seen at least as treason, if not worse.
So let me see, the Greeks were wrong to stand up and fight for liberating their lands from the Turks? Venizelos was wrong for wanting the Greeks of Asia Minor to be liberated? The Greeks were better rulled under the Turks? The Greeks were conducting TREASON “because of these Greek populations, in a way, betraying their own country”?!!??? The Turks ” did preserve their (Greek) rights quite well”?!!? And let me get this right you want more religious freedom today from the Greek state, even though if we all thought like you there would not even be a Greek state in the first place! Wow, that is beyond scary! You have truly revealed a dark side I cannot even begin to comprehend. Venizelos wanted Greek lands to be free again since they were occupied by Greeks for over 3000 years. Shame on us Greeks for seeking our liberty, we should have never wanted our freedom from the Turks in the first place. Now you want us to blindly give you what you are unwilling to give us, our freedom. I don’t think so.
PS: With your sked logic I guess you should tell the Palestinains to stop fighting for their freedom as well.
You again don’t get my point. My point was that things are not one sided!!!
You see, as I said, the Greeks of Asia Minor indeed lived quite well, giving you as an example them flourishing economically. This was written in my Lyceum history class book, so don’t twist and throw around with these things, making me look as if I’m trying to put an end to Greek existence or something. The Greeks and Turks where once quite good friends, and sang beside each other “εσύ Χριστό, εγώ Αλλάχ, αλλά κι οι δυό μας, αχ και βάχ”!
It is you who with your nationalistic ideals, want to come into battle with everyone, because you think that Greeks can live better under your rule! So what about the Greeks in Germany? Why don’t we go attack Germany as well? There are also some Turks there, this is a nice chance to kill those too! Are you serious?????!!!
The fact remains, that the Greeks of Turkey, are treated unjustly, because of those Greeks of Greece, attacking the Turks in their homeland. Expansionism, Imperialism, what makes us Greeks in this case any different from the Turks or the Israelites?!!!!
The reason why Venizelos was stupid, is because what he was about to do, was a “MISSION – !!!!!!IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! – “, and it only made the Turks more outraged with the Greeks.
Do you understand now, why Greeks are not some holy peoples, that should be the kings of the world? We are just HUMANS, and if you want justice, give yourself up in exchange for the Greeks of Turkey, because it was you who started this, and Turkey is only “taking revenge”. You see? It’s always about hate, and revenge, and hate, and some more revenge! You never seem to get enough. Neither you, nor the Turks. If there was just one world, where there were two parts, the Greek, and the Turkish, and all the space and time available for you to be fighting amongst yourselves, it would be the greatest of pleasures for you! Get over it! The turks of Thrace have Greek nationality, and the Greeks of Turkey, have Turkish nationality, nothing you can do about it, because the Turks don’t even care about “their” minority in Greece, although I can assure you, that they are also being ripped of many of their religious rights. If you want to help someone, start within your own land! And, please, give some weight on the word “start”. This is all I have to say…
P.S.: “1) Education”. What has this to do with anything? You did “education” to help your fellow Christians of Turkey, but nothing more, but still, you expect us to do the “more” part. In some places, this is called hypocrisy…sorry for having to point that out.
Amir Abdullah obviously you and I have a different version of Greek history. I am sorry I have failed to convey to you the importance of Greece being a free and sovereign nation. Nationalism might be looked down upon by some Muslims, but if I am not mistaken last time I looked at a map of the Middle East. were many Muslims live, there are a great variety of different ethnic states. In fact I also do believe there are growing nationalistic Muslim movements in places like North Africa and India. So excuse me if I see a huge contradiction between your practise and belief. Also I do not state that I or Greeks in general are holy or better than you or anyone else, what I do state is that after 400 years of occupation, the luxury of being free is something most Greeks are not willing to surrender. Again the solution is simple, recognition of the minorities on both sides. If you can understand that, then you can understand my position.
Education affords us to learn from the past injustices and not be mislead. As a Greek therefore it is important to learn about the tragedy that befell our people in Turkey. Too many people today do not care or know of things that happened even a generation ago. Here’s some food for thought, a few examples, The Mechanism of Catastrophe by Speros Vryonis Jr., Paradise Lost: Smyrna 1922, By Giles Milton, The Battle of Salamis: The Naval Encounter That Saved Greece—and Western Civilization by Barry Strauss and Persian Fire by Tom Holland.
For every cause, there is a problem and a solution. I think we have truly exhaaaaaaausted talking about the problem. Time for some action. As Muslims, our trait is to enjoin the good and forbid the evil in society for ALL of humanity so if there are being injustices done right now, then we will support you, just like we would support you if you said you wanted to save the whales. But this is your cause, so you need to be the leader in this.
You said your method is education. Well, you need to narrow that down about 10 notches. Make a plan. What specifically will you do to run this campaign? With all due respect, coming on a forum of Greek Muslims to talk about Turkey, which we have absolutely no connections with, is not going to cut it. I have nothing to do with Turkey, I don’t know anyone in Turkey and I am not affiliated with their secular government by any means, so I really can’t help you there. It’s like saying I want the Greek govenrment to approve a mosque in Athens so I’m going to go to SonsOfSparta in Canada to get him to give me a mosque. That doesn’t work.
What is your plan and course of action?
As a Greek, the plight of the Greek community of Constantinople concerns me as do other issues concerning Greece. Simply because I may lack the capacity to make changes to this reality does not mean I should stop being concerned. Should I stop reading a newspaper or stop watching the news if I personally cannot correct a wrong? I am sure there are a great deal of things we would all like to change for the better in this world, but may not be able to do so, does that mean we shouldn’t discuss injustices? When the issue of injustice and history comes up, I at least try to say what I believe is right and true. You don’t seem to have a problem posting your position online for the entire world to read, making claims and stating opinions, so why then be surprised when some other Greek points out an alternative viewpoint to your own.
We have a saying,
“Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart – and that is the weakest of faith.” Hadith in al-Bukhari
SonsOfSparta, we are a people of action. Nothing is impossible with the will of God. We make a sincere intention to benefit society and move forward in the best of manners. So, again, what is your plan for action?
As to your saying..Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; ..I think many Greeks have written and used their tongues,including myself to reveal the evil that befell the Greek community of Constantinople. In terms of plan for the future I cannot tell you for certain what any particular ‘plan for action’ might consitute outside of being informed and aware of the history. I think what many Greeks are hoping for, is that within the frame work of the EU preasure can be applied to Turkey to address the concerns of the minority Greek population. In order for that to occur both Greece and Turkey would have to appear to give concessions equally and create a new treaty within the body of the EU concerning their miniorities. This is why Greece cannot unilateraly do something about its minority groups since Turkey would not have any insentive to change its policies unless it sees Greece doing something as well at the same time. Getting to that point where both countries can agree to a new minority treaty is the challenge, but at long as Greeks keep addressing this issue and keeping it alive it will be a political problem that will not go away. It is therefore important to all Greeks that this issue is not put on a back burner.
Well, if that’s the most action you can do for an injustice, everyone will be rewarded with what they were able to do to their maximum capacity. By now, you know that us, as Muslims, we strive to enjoin the good in the society and forbid any evil in the society to the best of our ability for all of humanity (but must be in the appropriate manner). And as we both know, there have been devestating trajedies for both Christians and Muslims in Greece/Turkey so we will support standing up against both, regardless of religion. As you know, Turkey is secularly run and we have many quams with them ourselves. And as you know, Greece is continuing to unjustly treat some of the Muslims’ humanitarian rights.
But, ULTIMATELY, if the injustices proceed without compensation in this world, as Muslims, we have solace that ALL deeds, big, small, tiny, miniscule will be taken to account for the ultimate judgement by the Creator of the heavens and the earth on the Day of Judgement.
So, with that, SonsOfSparta, if there is any injustice we have done to you, please forgive us and if you have done any injustice to us, I forgive you.
Peace