Womens’ rights in Islam
July 29, 2009 by Guest Author
I have been often asked, what makes a woman born in the West accept a religion like Islam that oppresses women?
And I totally sympathise with the questioners as I had the same questions before I got to know and accept Islam as my religion and my way of life.
The only thing I could see in the days before Islam was the ” poor” fully covered Muslim women subservient to their husbands and slaves to their duties as wives and mothers .
As a lot of people sadly still do today, I had my own ideas and misconceptions about Islam and the treatment of women in Islam in particular.
“Oh no,” I was thinking. “I would never accept that!.”
The first thing most people pick on is the women’s Islamic code of dress . How many times have you heard “ Why does Islam degrade the women by keeping them behind the veil ?”
And the status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks also in the secular media. The hijab is considered as an example of “subjugation” of women under Islamic law.
People often forget the history of earlier civilizations and how the status of women in those eras was very low.
And then I read the Holy Qur’an and everything started making sense.
Regarding the veil: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (most ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands , their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons….” (Surah An-Nur 24:31 )Allah SWT in his infinite wisdom and for the protection of the women , morals and values prescribes the Veil.
The Holy Qur’an has a lot to say for women and to women.
In fact, the Qur’an has two surahs (chapters) dedicated to women: surah Al-Nisa’a (4) and surah Maryam (19).
I was surprised to read that Hawwa (Eve), the wife of Adam, was not solely responsible for the original sin but jointly and equally responsible with her husband. Equally she was forgiven as well as her husband by Allah SWT after their repentance.
In the Holy Qur’an, there are women mentioned, some who were true believers in difficult circumstances such as the wife of Pharaoh and Maryam (May Allah be pleased with them) the mother of Jesus (pbuh), and there were also women like the wife of Nuh (Noah) who betrayed her husband and is held up along with the wife of Lot as an example of a disbeliever (Al Qur’an 66:10-12).
And all through the Qur’an we find passages that make it obvious that the women are equal to men. Equal but of course different in their roles.
Islam forbade the Arab custom of their time to bury their female infants as they were considered an embarrassment to the male egos of the time.
In the Holy Quran we find that it is good deeds and awareness of Allah which make the believer, male or female, noble in the sight of Allah.
“Indeed the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most pious.” (Al Qur’an 49:13 )and
“Whoever does right, whether male or female, (all) such will enter the garden. ”(Al-Qur‘an .in 40:40:)
The works of male and female are of equal value and each will receive the due reward for what they do:
“ Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be male or female.. (Al Qur’an 3:195)
“Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him will We give a new life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to their actions. ”(Al Qur’an 16:97)
The same duties are incumbent on men and women as regards their faith:
“For Muslim men and women - for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God’s praise – for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.” (Al Qur’an 33:35)
And these are just some examples.
Also the Islamic law makes no demand that women should confine themselves to household duties. In fact the early Muslim women were found in all walks of life. The first wife of the Prophet, mother of all his surviving children, was a businesswoman. In fact, the Prophet (pbuh) when he received the first revelation, he ran frightened to his wife for comfort and asked her to cover him with a blanket. This shows how our Noble Prophet (pbuh) valued, and trusted his beloved wife Khadija( May Allah be pleased with her).
So as I got to know more about Islam, and I found out more and more, I established that a Muslimahs could have all the following rights:
- personal respect,
- respectable married status,
- legitimacy and maintenance for their children,
- the right to negotiate marriage terms of their choice,
- to refuse any marriage that does not please them,
- the right to obtain divorce from their husbands, even on the grounds that they can’t stand them
- custody of their children after divorce, and expect support from the absent father (maintenance)
- independent property of their own,
- the right and duty to obtain education,
- the right to work if they need or want it,
- equality of reward for equal deeds,
- the right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power,
and much more.
What other religion, political theory, or philosophy has offered such a comprehensive package?
So this is just a brief explanation of why, I as a Greek female, had no problem accepting my position as a woman in Islam.
Not only I had no problem but I was and I will always be eternally grateful for Allah showing me the way and getting to know Islam.
I am pleased with Allah (SWT) as my Lord , Islam as my religion and Mohammad (S.A.W) as my Prophet.
Yeah, this is one of those famous questions people want to ask us, Why would a women in the 21st century convert to an oppressing religion?!??
I also used to look at girls who wear hijab and feel sorry for them but this was out of complete ignorance for what Islam meant. I guess media propagation played a huge part in my thinking towards them.
But then when I actually studied Islam and all the rights and honour they are given, I noticed the wisdom in the hijab.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/woman-faces-40-lashes-for-wearing-pants/article1234736/
Seems a week doesn’t go by without some story in the press stressing the divide between womens rights in the West vs the East. Now some differences might be culutral differences rather than religious differences. It would be too easy for myself to point out all the news stories as the one above for one can fill pages and pages of women being denied their rights in many Muslim nations.
So rather than pointing out the obvious media stories, here are a few questions;
ImanK you wrote, Regarding the veil:
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (most ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands , their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons….” (Surah An-Nur 24:31 )
Allah SWT in his infinite wisdom and for the protection of the women , morals and values prescribes the Veil.
^^ If God created woman as He did man why would God forbid her to show her beauty? Why would God create beauty and then tell everyone to hide it? This is a ridiculous notion. So since man is not singled out to hide his beauty does this mean man needs not guard his modesty? Does this also mean women do not look at men lustfully even if a man is attractive and is not dressed modestly? This notion not only lowers women but it also lowers men, as if seeing a beautiful woman will make a man lose control and rape her. Also this concept implies that all men are inherently predisposed to having no self control. Furthermore by stating ; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands , their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons reveals that women are somehow as a result under the domain of their male relatives. Let us not forget the fact that A Muslim man can have more than one wife also reveals the status of women is not nearly equal to that of man.
Hello Son of Sparta
I will make a correction to start with. Sister Iman did not make the satement regarding the veil but it is an ayat from the Holy Qur’an as revealed to the Last Prophet (PBUH).
Regarding the article in the beginning of your comment to start with:SUDAN
The country is split in two – Muslim in Khartoum and the north and Christian in the south.
If you want to live in North Sudan you must adhere to its Islamic principles and most of all its Islamic Sharia law. If you do not like this then move to the Secular southern Sudan.
It is the same as elsewhere If you break the law you expect to be punished.
Regarding the beauty of the women and why they have to hide behind the veil:
If you have a very beautiful piece of art eg say a picture. I am sure you do not display it in the front garden so every opportunist can come and get it.
The same for the women. We are priceless. We are not to be used as you see happening in the West. If you want to sell cars or whatever just put in the ad a semi dressed woman, to say the least.
And the behavioural hijab has been also prescribed for men.They have to lower their gaze and not let their eyes wonder around. I do not want to generalise but most women are not controlled by their lusts as majority of men do. So the chances are that we would not be looking lustily at the first attractive male that crosses our path. Men though by nature are hunters. So Muslim women do not want to be hunted or haunted.Think the modesty of the Muslim female as a blessing. How many men do we save from sinning just by covering up.I hope you agree.
The women of the West are in a very difficult position. They experience the worst oppression ever because they are told they are living in a free society when this is only a fiction.
If you leave Islam out that annoys the west for 50 years now or less (before there were the communists in this position), and you look sincerely at the matter of women, you will see that the “un-oppereesed civilized world” pays too much attention to the looks of the women either muslim or not.
A Greek woman for example is in a very difficult and oppressive position from the begining of her woman life starting from 13 years.
She must be perfect, she must have the perfect body and to show it widely to the public if she wants to be popular. If she has good assets she does not need good grades. After 18 years she must be sexually overactive and change lovers constantly to be trendy. She is ideal in the eyes of the society that trains people that live for today, without free will and own ideals having money as they god.
Imagine the oppression to the greek family when a greek father is OBLIGED to behave civilized when some uknown guy grabs his daughter and kisses her in front of him, or taking her for holidays somewhere. And the parents of the boys want their sons to have fun with girls as long as they like and then marry a virgin girl of their choice.
Imagine and feel the opressed position a girl is. If she wants to have academic career or business career she must not get pregnant at least up to her 35 years otherwise a single person will be preferred instantly, or bear any sexual harrasement if she wants to go up.
I was born free and I chose Islam because liberates me. I am respected, I have no less rights than any men, actually I have more rights than the “western women”.
And I see that people cannot stand that truth, that is why they try so hard to blame Islam for everything.
This is sad because they could use all this effort to improve their systems of life and leave Islam with their faithful ones.
Interesting discussion. Since the other sisters did a great job of responding, I want to point out two things from the another perspective:
I’m glad you brought this up. If oppression is done, it is from culture, not the actual religion. We are talking from a religious point of view.
This is like asking, “If God created man the ability to make guns, why did He forbid killing an innocent man?” The short answer? Because God can create anything he wants and forbid anything He wants.
The long answer? There is wisdom in every one of God’s command. I could go on for pages describing part of the wisdom but I think the sisters replying are doing a good job so far.
I apologize ImanK for mistakening Xenia’s comments for your own.
Xenia I have to follow up on your comment, “If you want to live in North Sudan you must adhere to its Islamic principles and most of all its Islamic Sharia law. If you do not like this then move to the Secular southern Sudan.” Isn’t your position rather extreme regarding minority Christians and others in Sudan who do not follow strict Islamic principles? You are supporting a website that seeks more religious minority rights in Greece and then you argue for minorities in northern Islamic Sudan to leave the country!?! What does this tell me about your position? The problem that many non-Muslims have with your faith is not what you believe, but rather your inability to accept others who do not follow your belief system. Back to the issue of the viel, we hear over and over again how many women in Muslim nations do not have the CHOICE to wear or not wear the viel. Now I am noting speaking from what I read in the media, but also from the fact that my cousin lives in Saudia Arabia is married a Muslim man and has daughters, and I have had many discusions over the years with her as to how ‘free’ she is to move around in that nation outside in public. She can’t go an inch outside of where she lives without getting all dressed up to appease ‘the religious’ population in that nation. In fact she often tells me how hypocritical many women are in Saudi Arabia, for under the viel there are just as promiscuous as their counterparts in the West. You see you cannot simply just have laws that dictate to women or men for that matter how they should be modest, this notion has to come from within a person. The idea of a morailty police running around making sure women dress modestly is ridiculous, as is the law that states women must face the lash if they break a dress code, this has nothing to do with God but rather backward societies that only know how to keep civil order with extreme forms of punishment.
Also how is it a women who wears a viel and also wears tight jeans and heavy make-up is somehow considered modest? The hypocrisy of the situation where entire Muslim societies pretend to be moral based on a dress code is much worse than anything in the West because it is all an outward facade put in place to project a reality that does not exist and appease a consertative religious hardcore authority. Rather than focusing on dress codes and how one outwardly looks, women and men for that matter should look inward and live their lives as morally as possible without putting on some kind of dress show to reveal how pious they are.
Good evening Son of Sparta.
You said:
QUOTE Isn’t your position rather extreme regarding minority Christians and others in Sudan who do not follow strict Islamic principles? You are supporting a website that seeks more religious minority rights in Greece and then you argue for minorities in northern Islamic Sudan to leave the country!?]
My Reply:
I will give you an example first; If in UK they were passing a law that required the citizens to dress in swimwear what would I do? I would have to get out of this country as I will never accept that. So this is one and the same.
As we said many times we have to respect the laws of the country.
With regards to the Muslimahs who wear headscarf and make up and tight jeans:
They do not observe the Hijab as it has been prescribed.
Hijab is not only the headscarf but also a loose garment , modest way of dressing trying not to attract attention to
yourself. So if the sisters do choose not to adhere I can not speak for them. It is their choice.
Bright colours, tight clothes etc obviously are not what is all about.
And Hijab is also the woman’s behaviour.
I agree with you that we should all live our lives as morally as possible with sincerity and every good intention.
And as we said before is all about choices. There is no compulsion in Religion.
And as we said before is all about choices. There is no compulsion in Religion.
^^ But where are the ‘choices’ for women in places like northern Sudan, Saudi Arabia and countless other regions where hardcore Islamic authorties do no tolerate any women who does not wear the viel? You hide the issue by stating that “As we said many times we have to respect the laws of the country.” So counties like northern Sudan who carry out extreme forms of dress code one must respect? Again your solution for the Christian women or secular women there is to move? So with that in mind Muslim minorities in secular or non-Muslim nations should move out of the country if they don’t like their laws? At least admit that your positon in no way reflects peaceful co-exstance, you want the right to wear the viel in the West and deny the right women for women in Muslim nations not to wear the viel because they have to respect that natons laws. I believe right now you are hiding under the viel of minority rights to advocate a religious law (which in fact was created by man) so you can wear a viel in the West and take away the right of a women not to wear in fundamentalist Muslim nations because they must ‘respect’ the laws of those countries.
Again on the issue of beauty I cannot see how God creates women and then says hide your beautyy? Is a women cursed for being considered beautiful? Are men all savages who will go off the deep end if they see a beautiful women? Is this why some Muslim women will go ’swimming’ with their clothes on, so as not to offend anyone? Somehow I think God is pulling a practical joke on us as extreme Islamic fundamentalist ideology is convincing some Muslims that ‘modest dress’ now also means women should be covering their entire bodies to go swimming, for heaven forbid if they are seen by any man!! Truth is I think that this mentality offends God because the very female bodies He created for mankind are treated to be hidden to the point that we are ashamed to show them. That is a ridiculous notion. No one should be ashamed of how one looks, it is not our outward appearance that makes us modest or not, rather it is how we think in our minds and what is in our hearts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZEQ1afD3Ao
But what other choices do you have if you refuse to accept and obey the laws of the country you live in? What are the alternatives? Have you got any suggestions? Can you impose your wants and go against the law? I mentioned what I would do in negative circumstances like those. Is the veil against the law in Greece? Please let me know. And why the nuns are wearing a habit? Is that against the law as well? And if you are a Christian do you oppose the veil that was worn By the Mother of Jesus Peace be upon them both? Come on. Lets talk about it.
Why do you find the veil so ” offensive?” What is it that is troubling you?
Women in the West are being exploited in so many ways. They are used left, right and centre. The less you wear the further you get as far as I am concerned. Some can not see beyond the pound of flesh that you expose. Is this that you call respect and value to the female sex? God created the women to compliment the men and be equal partners. Not some kind of toy that can be played with and be thrown away. And I have been to the beach and I also know that the majority of men are not just enjoying the summer breeze. And the other thing that is very annoying is that some men, have different rules for their mothers, daughters, wives and different for other females that they are harassing in the streets.
God’s wisdom can not be questioned so lets not say he is pulling a practical joke. The men are pulling the wool over the women’s eyes and they call it West and Progress.
“it is not our outward appearance that makes us modest or not, rather it is how we think in our minds and what is in our hearts.”
The outer appearance is only an image of one’s true inner self, so when someone is modest inside, he is modest outside as well. This comes to say two things. 1. Islam is not only about the outside, rather it is being pure inside one self that makes you realize the beauty in the purity of the outside. 2. In the “West”, it’s still a “Wild West”, you know what “wild” means. This clearly shows that “Western” “Free” people don’t know what is going on with them (running around half-naked), and they even think they are cool because of that. This is 1. immodesty, and 2. arrogance, both in one package.
So as you see, the “Westerners” don’t even know what religion is, because they think they can “believe” (without any evidence) in something, and run around half-naked not even following their religion properly. Clearly, this is not the part of “civilization” that you got from the Muslims.
Anyhow, point is, if you are not modest on the outside, it means that you know nothing about the essence of modesty. Not that being modest on the outside means that you do know the essence, but one can not only be modest on the inside, it’s a logical fallacy.
I greet you all warmly,
Amir.
This is another sister’s point of view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVPALuoUrLg&feature=related
and another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diy_Tyz8Tzo&feature=related
It is not the viel that is ‘offensive’ as it is the lack of choice that women have in many societies not to have the freedom not to wear it. Yes people must obey the laws of one’s state but laws must also be there to protect individual freedoms. This concept is alien to nations that practise fundamentalist Islamic law because the idea of a women having the freedom or right not to wera the viel does not exist in those societes. Furthermore lashing someone for breaking a dress code is barbaric in nature, it has nothing to do with God, because God in essence is good and there is nothing good in tormenting a fellow human. This is why one of the pillars of Christianity theology is based on Christ saying “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” Simple and to the point, let us not use violence as a way of teaching morals to people.
In regards to the Virgin Mary wearing a viel, yes she did as did many women in the ancient world. This however does not mean all women must today wear a viel, this is a tradition, just like priest who don’t cut their beards is a tradition, somehow extreme fundamentalist want to argue that the dress code is a divine code. God did not fabricate clothes or manners of dress, this is man made. In regards to the viel in history if you ever bother to visit Greek or Roman gallaries in musuems you will see women depicted wearing viels both in sculpture as well as on vase paintings. By the time of the late Roman period more and more women are depicted wearing viels. The early Christian tradition and today in convents we see nuns and women wearing the viel as they regard this as their choice to be close to God. Again I don’t subscribe that being close to God, women should hide their bodies, and this to me on a philosophical level is a step backwards. You have to undrestand how these viels came into existance in the first place. Women had very few rights in the ancient world, their worth was to have children and to be under the ‘protection’ of a male relative. The only ones who were not like this were basically the prostitutes who used their flesh to gain some sort of power over men, think Cleopatra seducing Ceasar and later Mark Anthony. Very few women had the freedom to be poets or generals or monarchs, although there were some notable ones in the ancient Greek world. Since the ancient Pagan world had a Laissez-faire or let it be attidue towards morality by the time of Christianty, public behavior began to favour a position where it was best to keep women hidden under viels and garments. The physically human body was to be covered up, because since Plato the great phislosopher pointed out inner beauty is more important and this did fit in with Christ’s teaching, those in authority went out of their way to erase outer physical beauty. This authority closed the Olympic Games (which were conducted in the nude) and stopped people producing works of art that showed the naked human form. So what happens by the fall of the Roman Empire in the West and the rise of Byzantium is that the depiction of the human body in art disappears all because those in charge believed the human form should not be shown. Women lost even more liberties than they had in antiquity.
It is not until the Renaissance that we once again see the human nude in art form and it is not until the Age of Enlightenment in the 1700s that we start seeing women becoming more and more free in their way of dress in northern European soieties as well as in their choice of professions. By the time of the industrial revolution comes around women are finally able to have a greater degree of freedom. If ever you studied art history you will that garments often reveal how free or restrictive a society can be, of course this is but one factor to look at while analyzing history.
Good evening SOS.
I understand what you are trying to convey.. I have done certain research too and some of the points you mention are agreed upon. However,
I will not write a lengthy answer but there is also information about veils in the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil
From your point of view as a man what would attract your attention first?
1) A semi naked woman?
2) A covered up woman?
If you speak to the women who have opted to wear the veil you will find that it is their choice, their veil. The husband, the brother,the son , the father not in that order particularly ,can not make them wear it.
The same way, you can not be a Muslim by force or you can not pray by force just because somebody else wants you to.
The veil is not only the material that covers your head and body, but it is your whole way of life and your behaviour.
Also the veil is a form of ID. We are Muslim and we are happy to be so. In Islam we are encouraged to greet each other with greetings of Peace. So I for example will recognise a lady wearing the veil as a sister and I will greet her. The veil gives also an opportunity for others to enquiry about it, our thoughts and feelings and why not? To ask questions about Islam.
If somebody asks me why I wear the veil I will be happy to answer the reasons why. A discussion might develop and who knows? As Muslims we can not force anybody to accept the faith. We can only give the message.
In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust.
Anyway regardless of the history of the Veil and how it came into existence ,I believe that the Holy Qur’an is the word of our Creator. So I am not going to dismiss the divine command as per your Quote [God did not fabricate clothes or manners of dress, this is man made. ]
I am not going to deny my Creator , His commands, and The infinite Wisdom behind them. He has also given us free choice. If we want we follow and if want we don’t have to. I can not begin to think why the women if they are women and I am talking about believing women would object wearing the veil and feel oppressed . Or maybe is the men?
With regards to some History:
Women were degraded all through History:
Babylonians:
If a man killed a woman , his wife was put to death not him
Greek Mythology:
Pandora was the cause of the misfortune of human beings.
Roman civilization:
At the zenith of its glory a man was even allowed to put his own wife to death.
Egyptians;
They used to consider the women evil and as a sign of a devil
Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam, the Arabs looked down on the women and often when a female child was born, they buried her alive.
Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago.
The women are respected , loved and honoured.
With regards to the punishments served again they have been prescribed as a deterrent and as a form of expiation as I see it.
God has shown us the way. We also know the consequences. It is the same in a secular society. I know what happens if I break the law,. So I choose not to. ” If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.” kind of thing. And I would never pass judgement on anybody. My favourite quote was from somebody who has now passed away. He said; ” Who has glass houses, does not throw stones.” I will always remember.
And in my personal life I fear Allah more than anything else. I fear the fire of hell and I fear His anger. But I also know He is the Most Merciful.
Hello, Son of Sparta.
It would be naive to suggest that the society of KSA or other “fundamentalist” Islamic countries is perfect or that social issues are handled perfectly there.
Not at all.
Like in any society, you have the weaker elements that will try to break the law or find loop-holes in the system and use them.
Furthremore, an Islamic “fundamentalist” system, cannot function correctly if the strictly-held society is exposed to the not-so-strict or sometimes anti-Islamic media.
And there, I believe, lies the KSA officials’ biggest mistake.
You cannot order men and women to act/dress in a certain way while exposing them to lifestyles that are totally different – even if you do derive your orders from the Noble Qur’an and the Sunnah.
No wonder you’ll get Saudi rebels and dissidents.
As for the issue of why God should order women and men to cover up if He had created them beautiful? That’s a rather naive question.
Organisms/creatures do not survive (let alone survive well) by just being in a certain way, but also by acting in a certain way.
If rodents don’t rub their incisors against each other, they’ll grow to the extent that they cannot move their mouthes, let alone eat.
If many animal parents don’t care for their young, they’ll die.
How many human beings do you see walking around with hair, beards or nails that are so long that they cannot live a normal life?
In short, one wears clothes for the same reason one trims his nails or hair.
Besides, other than the idea of ensuring protection by avoiding the sexual arousal of the other sex, one dresses modestly out of respect for others.
A Muslim man or women is not allowed to pray to God (the prescribed prayers) if he or she is not wearing modestly.
Zeus might get sexually attracted to one of his own creations; that’s not the case with the real God.
So it is out of respect to God that we wear modestly during prayer.
Speaking of sexual arousal, don’t you see that the threshold of sexual arousal in the West has become so high that people are turning to pervert lifestyles to sexually satisfy themselves: orgies, homosexuality, bestiality, incest, robotic sex?
And who is really the sex-starved side here? Muslim men who can have up to four wives – and I stress here WIVES (with emotional support, protection, shelter and financial support) – yet very, very few of them use that right? Or is it the sex/nudity-oppsessed West?
Where does all the pornography on the web and on the shelves of Western bookshops come from? Muslim lands? The supposed lands of the “harems”?
No, it comes from the “sexually-cool”, “sexually-immune” West!
And on the difference between men and women… you must go to this website to understand:
http://www.mensconfraternity.org.au/?page=p79
The most important lines in question here are:
“Both men and women may desire sex but only men need sex. This is one of the crucial differences between men and women, a fact that very few men and fewer women know.”
Later he/she says the following:
“A man’s recurrent involuntary urge for sexual activity can hit him at any moment – regardless of his ongoing activity, his situation or the availability of female company. For example it can happen while he is walking down the street, attending a finance lecture, watching a movie or driving a car. It is very frustrating for a man not to be able to have sexual intercourse when sexual arousal is activated. Men do not willingly consider masturbation to be an acceptable alternative to sexual intercourse.
Men can be sexually oriented towards women they pass in the street, even though the man knows nothing about the women’s personalities, ideas of right or wrong, or their mental capabilities – men are attracted by the mere sight of the female form itself.”
The writer goes on to say:
“On the other hand, whilst women might admire a man’s body, there is no physiological mechanism of sexual release to be triggered in women by what women see. A woman’s sexual desire is generated consciously by herself in her own mind and, unlike men, women can go through their whole life without ever having the need for a sexual thought.”
As for the alleged saying of Jesus Christ (phuh): saying “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”… Read the book “Misquoting Jesus” by the Biblical scholar, Bart D. Ehrman, and you’ll learn that that saying was most probably added by a scribe – it wasn’t authentic!
You said: “lashing someone for breaking a dress code is barbaric in nature”.
Hmmm… how about killing one’s own infant for being deformed or too weak. Isn’t that barbaric, Son of Sparta? Eh? (Does that ring a bell, Mr. Spartan?)
By the way, eugenics, was practiced by both pagen and secular “progressive” societies.
It was never practiced by monotheistic societies – at least as far as I know.
Finally, is it hypocritical to demand for what is naturally granted by the local constitution/law?
Theocracies are based on religion. People enforce what they believe is divine. Not doing so would be considered a sin.
On the other hand, when a supposed democracy states certain rights (whether religious or otherwise) to its citizens, but does its best not to grant them those rights, that also is a sin.
So who is the hypocrit here, Son of Sparta? Those who follow the local law or those who don’t?
Hope I’ve made my point clear.
Brother Adelfos I guess you and I are the odd ones out as our comments of course reveal a male perspective on a primarily a women’s issue. I think I can safely say it is in the interests of everyone of every religion that we all want a society that treats everyone with respect and equality.
For myself I see two main factors here, 1) freedom of religion and 2)freedom of choice for women. The first factor freedom of religion, is exactly that, the right to practise ones belief. The problem arises from time to time when that right contradicts civil rights or state laws. The second factor, freedom of choice, is also a problem for many women in fundamentalist religious societies that don’t allow individual women the freedom not to wear the viel.
I understand many Muslims believe it is God’s Will they dress a certain way, and that is their right to believe that to be true, I however disagree with that way of thinking simply because it does not seem logical for God to create women and then command she be hidden from man.
Brother Adelfos you wrote:
As for the issue of why God should order women and men to cover up if He had created them beautiful? That’s a rather naive question.
In short, one wears clothes for the same reason one trims his nails or hair.
Besides, other than the idea of ensuring protection by avoiding the sexual arousal of the other sex, one dresses modestly out of respect for others.
^^ I don’t follow your point, how is this question naive? I think the question makes a lot of sense for God wanting to dress women and make them modest assumes God made a mistake for making women beautiful or desirable by men in the first place. Also it seems you have a problem with men having any type of ‘arousal’ seeing a women, as if by default men are corrupt, or will become savage if they see a women, again you are implying God created man who is so weak willed he cannot control himself. This is a false analogy that I will not subscribe to.
Also simply beacuse there is some moral decay in certain Western societies this does not mean that individuals or societies should not have liberties and freeedoms. God gave man free will, this freedom to choose between right and wrong goes back to Adam and Eve, if God did not want man to be free He never would have given us the abilty to exericise our free will.
In regards to; The most important lines in question here are:
“Both men and women may desire sex but only men need sex. This is one of the crucial differences between men and women, a fact that very few men and fewer women know.”
^^ Wow perhaps you should consider the profession of sex therapist! I have to say you are dead wrong on that one. With that type of thinking, one can easily justify prostitution or men cheating on their wives. Besides,who is to say what individual desires either men or women want, this sterotype does not address the issue of women’s rights but rather it is created to support an ideology where women must ‘please’ their men. Your whole argument lowers both men and women. Naturally you then jump to justify polygamy as Muslim men can have up to 4 wives. Sooo, God creates man, he then creates women and then God says since man has too many urges, I will let him marry up to 4 women at one time? I don’t think so. What most likey happened is some guy years ago thought, you know what would be great, if I could have a few more wives, perhaps some younger ones, maybe I’ll get some religious authority to write it down and convince society that this is a divine concept.
Finally;
You said: “lashing someone for breaking a dress code is barbaric in nature”.
Hmmm… how about killing one’s own infant for being deformed or too weak. Isn’t that barbaric, Son of Sparta? Eh?
^^ Yes it was barbaric and this was practised over two thousand years ago, however, TODAY in some Muslim nations women are openly ‘punished’ in public for failing to adhere to a dress code.
Hi, Son of Sparta,
This is a very complex subject, indeed!
Allow me to start where you had finished… what’s going on in KSA is wrong for two important reasons: the first was already covered in my earlier comment (enforcing something on the people while allowing them at the same time to be distracted by and attracted to the wrong alternative).
The second reason is the methodology used.
What the “ethics police” or “God squad” (as some might like to call them) are doing in KSA isn’t wrong in principle. But it’s done in a heavy-handed manner that backfires both on them and on Islam.
Now back to the main subject regarding women in Islam and how Islam sees the relationship between men and women (and what not)…
As Muslims (people who follow Islam and understand it as being a God-inspired way of life whose literal sources have suffered neither corruption, nor compromising), we believe that Islam has left no aspect of life untouched or addressed: from foreign policy down to how to use the toilet.
You may think it’s too interfering; but for those who believe in Islam, it’s very comforting and liberating. It’s liberating because it liberates one from disorientation and from being the victim of people’s changing whims, likes and dislikes.
There a a set of rules and criterions; these are fixed because they are directly from God. And God knows the future just as much as he knew the past and knows the present. And God doesn’t change his mind like we do!
Sodomy cannot be a punishable sin a few hundred years ago, then become perfectly acceptable just because society has accepted it!
The same applies to pre-marital sex or extra-marital sex.
The ultimate goal of a true Muslim (male or female, alike) is to please the Lord.
And that is done by following His commands to the best of his or her ability.
Since Islam is directly from God, it understands what’s best for the individual, for society as a whole, and for the environment as well.
And so polygyny – a common practice by most nations (including Biblical prophets) throughout history since and before Biblical times – was confined by Islam to up to four wives and was neither encouraged, nor discouraged (because not all societies, men or women need it).
Thus, if polygyny is harmful for the first wife, it’s certainly a virtue to many second or third or fourth wives. And it’s certainly much better than the prospect of a “loose sexual canon” who might impregnate his mistress(es) causing them an uninvited social and financial problem and bring into the world children that would be labled “bastards” living with single mothers. Not to mention, the possiblity of catching and transferring sexually-transferrable diseases.
(By the way, did you know that polygyny was accepted in ancient Greece and that monogamy/monogyny in Europe was primarily a Roman invention that was later introduced into Christianity? A Roman could have only one wife, but multiple lovers.)
(Oh, and here’s an interesting videos on polygyny by an American non-Muslim, non-Jew, non-Mormon young lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrGZiVdTNZI).
Marriage was defined by the Noble Qur’an as being a relationship of both love and mercy – if one lost love for his/her spouse, he or she should not lose mercy towards him/her.
That said, sexual arousal is not seen as a negative thing in itself, so long as it takes place between husband and wife.
Sexual arousal is a gift from God to mankind (and other creatures) without which sexual intercourse – something we as highly-sensitive and intellectual beings might otherwise regard as disgusting – would never have taken place between married couples.
What Islam condemns is allowing sexual intercourse or even its introduction (sexual arousal) to happen outside of wedlock.
Son of Sparta, have you ever tried to make a calculation of the hours wasted by single (either unmarried or temporarily single married) men around the world as a result of being “visually entertained”?
And it doesn’t have to be pornography per se either!
Gossip/celebrity magazines, internet, beaches, swimming pools, films, even the “innocent” stroll in the market place… are all part of the huge distraction.
That time and energy could be put into all sorts of useful activities, instead: business, cultural, educational, charity-related, and even other (non-wasteful) social activities.
Now let’s talk a bit about beauty…
It goes without saying that a man or a woman’s body could be an object of beauty.
But where do we draw the line between an aesthetic (sexually unaroused) appreciation of a human model’s beauty and a lustful interest in it?
Son of Sparta, are you comfortable with the idea of a female member of your family being the subject of the sexual fantacies of the male public?
And, likewise, would your wife (if you’re married) accept the idea of you being sexually desired by female members of society.
If you’re like most conservative people of the Mediterranean who haven’t yet become completely “Westernized” to the core, your answer will be: “No!”.
These feelings, that some attribute to (“patriarchal” or “male-favouring”) Abrahamic beliefs, are actually natural, instinctive feelings that are there for a purpose.
Even the pagens of Arabia had them.
And women found the protective feelings of their husbands and male members of their families, not as a sign of “possessiveness”, but rather as a sign of true manhood, with true feelings of love and care, since those men considered females too precious to be ogled by male strangers.
Besides, even if you, Son of Sparta, can guarantee to us that you’re “civilized” enough to control or supress or eliminate your sexual urges when you see a scantly dressed female, you cannot speak on behalf of all other men, nor do other men necessarily have the ability to be the same.
And if you don’t find it offensive that a female you care for should be sexually desired or “sexually appreciated/evaluated” by men strangers, others do find it offensive – men and women alike.
I once was surprised to hear a British female radio announcer critising art works that depicted nude women.
Apparently, not all is lost in the West!
Brother Adelfos you touch on many interesting points that I cannot answer in full at the moment (time constraints), but I will answer some of your points.
I will deal with the subject of art and beauty since I have spent much of my life studying and analyizing ancient Greek art and also I do create art (paintings) mostly as a hobby. I have come across many individuals be they ‘religious’ or secular who all have their own opinions on what is art and what is considered ‘vulgar’ such as nudity in art. My opinion is that a work of art for example either the Aphrodite of Melos (Venus de Milo) or Praxiteles Hermes with the Infant Dionysos (Ο Ερμής του Πραξιτέλης) can be viewed as a high achievement in Classical Greek art or by some as idol statues that show naked people. I often try to educate people as to the techinique that was used to create these works of art and tie that in to the notion that the ancient Greeks saw man as the measure of all things. The ancients had a saying, sound mind, sound body, achieving physical perfection was just as important to them as was their philosophy. The idea of the ancient Greeks trying to achieve perfection in both art form and architecture gave us some of the greatest monuments in human history such as the Parthenon. Besides man from caveman times has always attempted to recreate in art the beauty that is around us created by God, so man’s attempt in recreating the human form is in fact trying to reach out to God. When you look at the human art figure it reveals much about the society and/or the individual that created it. However many conservative religious societies over the ages had no appreciation for this art form and went out of their way to destroy it, all in the name of religion or morality. Unfortunately fanatical Christians and Muslims and Jews whose religious belief is so blinding have been responsible over the centuries for destroying many classical statues from antiquity simply because the figures were nude. Again what does this have to do with God? I know your answer, the figures were pagan so for that reason people were justified to destroy the art. To me this is all nonesense we cannot simply destroy art because it offends or hide it along with ‘our’ women. People have to stop being ’shocked’ at classical nude figures and read some history, look at the beauty that was ancient Greek art and get off the moral high horse that says the human figure should be covered and hidden from view.
Son of Sparta,
You mention “God” quite a lot…
Are you a believer in the Judeo-Christian/Muslim God?
Or do you just believe in a concept of a god?
Monotheists who follow their scriptures are ordered: “Thou shall not make graven images”.
So it is not about pagen images; its about any images.
I know very well that the Greek civilization was “andro-centric”, pretty much like the Western civilization of today.
But strict Monotheists, in contrast, believe that: 1- God is the supreme lord of the universe. 2- Man is imperfect. 3- The closer man is to following the commands of his (perfect) Lord, the closer he is to his (perfect) God.
Please do not take me as a person who doesn’t appreciate art. I do appreciate art. Especially ancient art. And I know how painstaking and difficult it can be to to come up with a piece of art.
Drawing animals was one of my favourite hobbies when I was young, but I’d rather do without a cherished hobby than displease my Lord.
Besides, Jews and Muslims (of all cultural backgrounds) achieved artistic wonders just using complex geometric and plant paterns, and reached the acme in the field of calligraphy. The architectural achievements they made were no less impressive. So avoiding human or animal figures is not a hinderence towards fine artistic expression.
And I fear that secular artists are so fond of art to the degree that they might be more heart-broken by the loss of some ancient artifact than by the news of children dying of hunger or war.
Yes, I believe this is the case for a high percentage of artists in our times. So this almost religious reverence of artifacts is also condemnable. And for that very reason, I’d excuse people who you might consider as “sacrilegious fanatics” if they harm your highly-prized statues.
At the end of the day, this whole discussion is pointless if you don’t agree that God has seated us on your “moral high horse”. At least, WE believe so.
Kic-kic… Giddy up, horse! (Not you, SOS)
Brother Adelfos I am very happy to correspond with you simply because you do have a sense of humor, that unfortunately I have not had the pleasure to exchange with others in this forum! Although I enjoy reading different opinions lets just say some here may not appreciate irony and sarcasim. Although we mostly like disagree on many religious topics it is important to always at least make the attempt to understand a different perspective and understand the humor that another person or group has when discussing such issues as religion and the nature of God.
Brother Adelfos you wrote:
Monotheists who follow their scriptures are ordered: “Thou shall not make graven images”.
So it is not about pagen images; its about any images.
^^ This is a matter of interpretation many scholars argue ‘graven images’ are referring to creating a false idol of worship, this is very different concept from creating an image which is ment to depict, illustrate or educate.
BTW I do believe in God, that of the Christian perspective, however as a student of history and the arts I am open to other ideas and perspectives. Within Christianity there are pagan ideas/art that forms have been incorporated into the body of the church since the early days. Now there are those scholars and theologians who understand this and accept this reality and there are those fundamentalist who believe that anything to do with the ancient pagan world is evil. But is it? As Greeks we are for the most part both proud and aware of the achievements of our ancient culture, for although our distant ancestors as a whole were not monothestic this does not mean they failled to be close to God or create literature and art that is of the highest moral caliber. Socrates spoke of one uknown God and many scholars regard him as being monothestic, Plato’s philosophical works transformed both Greek and Roman society as well as having a strong influence on other cultures. It would be wrong of us to simply label the ancients Greeks as simply pagans and dismiss their artistic contributions to humanity. Now its not that monothestic cultures did not or do not create beautiful art, but most often than not it is restricted under the authority of a relgious body that dictates what is and what is not allowed. In other words you as an individual Brother Adelfos, may have the capacity to draw well but unfortunately you are under the assumption that doing this will ‘displease my Lord.’ You have every right as an individual to follow your convictions but I hope you understand that your abilty to draw is a gift from God, not a curse. Besides if all ‘images’ in general offend God, then what do Muslims say about photographers? Are there not artist within the Islamic tradition that create beautiful mosaics for their mosques? Now here’s a thoughtful art question, if people in the Mosque are to be modest in their dress isn”t that in contradition to the structure Mosques since many have grand ornate geometric patterns, marble tiles and gold leaf domes? You see the irony here, people must be dressed modestly but the structure itself is not. What I am trying to show you is that beautiful art is not in contradtion with God.You have to read between the lines scripture is telling people not to worship false idols as God it doesn’t say don’t draw any pictures. Also as I have pointed out in past posts, the Hagia Sophia which was based on the pagan Pantheon in Rome and Roman basilica design also influenced Islamic architecture. In other words some Islamic architecture has a pagan connection. Which brings us back to art and beauty as created by man and inspired for the most part by God’s earthly creation of the natural world around us. I don’t believe either beauty or art for that matter is something that mankind should shun away from, no more than we should hide women from our view. I hope some of my points illustrate to you a different perspective.
I touched some aggressive accent in this forum and I`m really surprised but anyway
I read what the others wrote about ….sudan
just I want to say that there is no any rule in islam or quran gives the others the right to force women to dress the veil
the islam is religion of freedom
the QURAN tell you the god`s commands and show you the right and wrong path
but it doesn`t give the right to anyone to judge on the others or punish them because they didn`t follow the right path as long as they don`t hurt the others
and about what happening in sudan I say that the people in some arabic islamic places like sudan or saudi arabia behave according to their traditions and customs ,so forcing women to wear or to cover it is unacceptable in islam and is not from islamic values
and how I feel sorry and shameful to see all of this false impression around islam
because of some bad and unacceptable muslim`s behaviour
and their ridiculous way of thinking
so all what I wanted to say that
forcing womens to wear veil is not from islamic values
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
( لا إكراه في الدين ، قد تبين الرشد من الغي ، فمن يكفر بالطاغوت ويؤمن بالله فقد استمسك بالعروة الوثقى لا انفصام لها ، والله سميع عليم ) (البقرة/256) …
صدق الله العظيم
surat al buqara
aya 256
The laws of God that were handed down to moses concerning the ten commandments and all the other levitical laws that were given still apply.I agree that christianity in the west has been compromized .But lets not forget that Jesus paid the price for all men because we, in our self are born sinners which we have have inherited through Adam.Christianity though does not require a police going around to punish people who they claim are instigating sin by their dress code or any other conduct.Jesus said the wheat and the chaff shall live together till harvest time.This means that all who break Gods law will pay the price.But jesus took that on the cross because no man is worthy of executing Gods law.”Remove the plank in your own eye before you remove the splinter in your brothers eye”I find Xenia very naive because I myself am greek but residing in south africa from the age of ten.My parents immigrated to this country from lesvos.I live in the beautiful city of cape town which attracts many tourists over the summer.Cape town is the gay capital of africa and many arab muslims come to play the field here then go back home to their wives and kids in the middle east.I am in the tourist industry so belive me when I tell you.Thew christian God requires you to clean your heart.For then will everything fall into place.But i judge not.God is the judge.Oh by the way enjoy your cold winter in the north.Its getting hot and thriving down here Baby!!!!!
@Nick Seriously we are inherently sinners? Or is it just our stupidity that we do sins? Would you rather like your religion telling you that you are in essence good, only that you tend to forget that and do…sinful acts? If you are a sinner or not (excepting small mistakes, we all make those), it is your choice, not something inherent, and certainly not a burden that someone can actually give to you or you to someone else.