Burqa furor scrambles French politics
September 15, 2009 by Anna
Source: New York Times
Note: This article was published in the Greek newspaper, Kathimerini.
PARIS – It is a measure of France’s confusion about Islam and its own Muslim citizens that in the political furor here over “banning the burqa,” as the argument goes, the garment at issue is not really the burqa at all, but the niqab.
A burqa is the all-enveloping cloak, often blue, with a woven grill over the eyes, that many Afghan women wear, and it is almost never seen in France. The niqab, often black, leaves the eyes uncovered.
Still, a movement against it that started with a Communist mayor near Lyon has gotten traction within France’s ruling center-right party, which claims to be defending French values, and among many on the left, who say they are defending women’s rights. A parliamentary commission will soon meet to investigate whether to ban the burqa – in other words, any cloak that covers most of the face.
The debate is indicative of the deep ambivalence about social customs among even a small minority of France’s Muslim citizens, and of the signal fear that France’s principles of citizens’ rights, equality and secularism are being undermined.
French discomfort with organized religion, dating from the 1789 revolution and the disestablishment of the Roman Catholic Church, is aggravated by these foreign customs, which are associated in the Western mind with repression of women.
André Gerin, a Communist Party legislator and mayor of Vénissieux, a Lyon suburb with many Muslims from North Africa, began the affair in late June by initiating a motion, signed by 57 other legislators, calling for the parliamentary commission.
“The burqa is the tip of the iceberg,” Mr. Gerin said. “Islamism really threatens us.” In a letter to the government, he wrote: “It is time to take a stand on this issue that concerns thousands of citizens who are worried to see imprisoned, totally veiled women.”
A few days later, President Nicolas Sarkozy said that “the burqa is not welcome on the territory of the French Republic.” He did not say how it would be made unwelcome, however, or whether he intended to extend existing laws that already ban head scarves or any other religious symbol from public schools.
For Mr. Sarkozy, who defends participation in the Afghan war as a matter of women’s rights, “the problem of the burqa is not a religious problem,” he said. “It is a problem of liberty and the dignity of women. It is a sign of servitude and degradation.”
There is a strong suspicion that Mr. Sarkozy, who has supported religious freedom, is playing politics in a time of economic unhappiness and social anxiety. But he also seems to want to restrict more radical and puritanical forms of Islam from gaining further hold here.
The French press has been full of heated opinion pieces, charts about different Islamic veils, stories about public swimming pools and the burqini, an Islamic swimsuit that covers the body and the hair (but not the face). Women wearing the niqab, many of them French converts to Islam, have said that they have freely chosen to cover themselves after marriage. Others say solemnly that to stigmatize or ban the veil would only cause more women to wear it, out of protest.
Last year, Faiza Silmi, now 33, was denied French citizenship in part for wearing the niqab, bringing a legal judgment about personal dress into the home. In an interview with Le Monde, Ms. Silmi said that she chose to wear the niqab after her marriage, even if her own mother thought it was “a little too much.”
“Don’t believe for a moment that I am submissive to my husband!” she said. “I’m the one who takes care of the documents and the money.”
Passions have been so high that when domestic intelligence issued a report saying that only 367 women in France wore a full veil, it seemed to make no difference.
For many French Muslims, the entire discussion is an embarrassment and an incitement to racial and religious hatred.
M’hammed Henniche is the secretary for the private Union of Muslim Associations of Seine-Saint-Denis. He is French first of all, he said, and he is appalled.
“There’s nothing but confusion,” he said. “What they’re talking about is the niqab, but I think choosing to use burqa instead is not an accident. They chose a word that is associated with Afghanistan, and that spreads a negative, scary image.
“There are laws in France that force women to show their face, in certain situations, at the town hall, at the bank,” Mr. Henniche added. “Women who wear niqab take it off when they must. But in the streets, everyone is free. They’re spinning this story in order to stigmatize a community.”
Even existing laws are misunderstood, he said, with a woman refused entry to a bank because employees thought a head scarf was illegal. “It’s a dangerous slip, going from a ban in school to a ban in the streets,” he said.
John R. Bowen, who wrote “Why the French Don’t Like Headscarves: Islam, the State and Public Space,” has been asked to testify by the parliamentary commission.
“French political discourse is internally conflicted,” said Mr. Bowen, a professor at Washington University in St. Louis. There is confusion about different kinds of public space, he said – the street, and places that belong to the state but are not freely open to the public, like schools.
France took from Rousseau the principle that no intermediate group or affiliation should stand between the citizen and the state, which represents the general interest, Mr. Bowen said. But Rousseau also championed the right to form private associations, or clubs. It was not until 1901, however, that the state allowed some unions or associations, Mr. Bowen said, and not until 1981 that foreigners could form them.
Muslim groups then started religious tutoring, seen as promoting Islam, and clubs based on ethnicity or religion are viewed with great suspicion, Mr. Bowen said. “There is a sense that people who are publicly displaying their religious or ethnic characteristics are a slap in the face of French applied political theory.”
Mr. Bowen does not think there will be a law banning the niqab. Nor does Yazid Sabeg, Mr. Sarkozy’s commissioner for diversity and equal opportunity, who said it would be unenforceable.
“Even if they ban the burqa, it will not stop there,” Mr. Henniche, of the Muslim group, said. “There is a permanent demand for legislating against Muslims. This could go really bad, and I’m scared of it. I feel like they’re turning the screws on us.”
Nadim Audi contributed reporting from Paris.
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The French scream freedom …freedom…freedom., but it is only freedom for non-Muslims to attack restrain Muslims and Islam in ANY way possible. It just comes to show you who is oppressing who and who the REAL fanatics are……and all after they wreaked havoc in Muslim inhabited lands for decades during their tyrannical colonialistic periods. Nothing ever changed, it is just another chapter in their book and the saga continues….
Θα γράψω στα Ελληνικά γιατί είναι η φυσική μου γλώσσα. Και απαντώ στον ΧαΪρουλλαχ, λέγοντας ότι θα πρέπει να αναρωτηθεί γιατί οι Ισλαμικές χώρες απαιτούν ισλαμική ενδυμασία ή όπως αλλιώς την λένε σεμνή ενδυμασία στους ξένους επισκέπτες τους;
Εδώ στην Ευρώπη έχουμε διαφορετικά ήθη από ότι τα δικά σας.
Καλό είναι να σεβαστείτε τα δικά μας, και να μην θέλετε να επιβάλλετε στον Γαλλικό λαό – ο οποίος αγωνίστηκε εναντίον της τυρρανίας – στην δική του χώρα – τον ισλαμικό τρόπο ντυσίματος κ.τ.λ. Όπως δεν επιτρέπετε στις δικές σας χώρες τις Μουσουλμανικές να ντύνονται οι ξένοι όπως ντύνονται στις χώρες τους.
Και αν είσαι Ευρωπαίος μουσουλμάνος ΧαΪρουλλάχ, και όχι από ασιατική χώρα, θα έπρεπε να έχεις ήδη καταλάβει την ιδιοσυγκρασία των Ευρωπαίων … όσον αφορά την ευαισθησία τους στην ελευθερία και την ανεξαρτησία του ατόμου.
Οι μουσουλμάνοι χρεισιμοποιούν τους νόμους μας και την ελευθερία μας και την ανεκτικότητά μας ,,, για να μας την λένε κιόλας, ότι μιλάμε για ελευθερία μόνο για τους μη μουσουλμάνους…Πού ; μέσα στην ίδια μας την χώρα και την ίδια μας την Ήπειρο.
Εύγε μας!
oh Pierra I never thought you feel European or you count yourself as Greek between the European tribes. As for European position of woman please look just 100 years back and compare. See woman’s rights in History and then come back for more European glory. All I see today is the manipulation of the woman, stripping her for what reason? to keep them imprisoned in their image.
Let us be honest and make a comparison. Imagine that you are in front of a serious discussion, how would you prefer to be dressed? in bikini or covered body?
Why cannot a woman or a person be dressed as they wish as long as they do not insault anyone? You understand that a dressed one insaults noone, a naked may insault some people. What is the fantasy of the European woman? To go with shorts in Mecca? Why don’t they dream of achieving something facinating for humanity and leave the shorts in the family environment? Too much trouble for the dressed muslimas who wish to stay dressed. It is humiliating for a woman to tell her “Undress to accept you”. Is it really the same to say “dress to accept you?”
And one last thing. Who invited all these Muslims in France? Have you heard about the brutal colonialism? What did they expect? To have all Muslim generations slaves forever? France owes to this Muslim population that fed the French population for so many years, and for the blood of all these who defended their land that the occupation forces took this from them. How should they treat the Muslimas in France? do we have still colonialism???
Άννα S, μου, (θα σου απαντήσω στα Ελληνικά, γιατί νιώθω άνετα με την μητρική γλώσσα μου και κυρίως γράφω και εκφράζομαι γρηγορότερα – είναι ζήτημα χρόνου και ευκολίας. Συν ότι βλέπω ότι καταλαβαίνεις Ελληνικά … αν και βλέπω ότι απαξιείς να τα μιλάς και να τα γράφεις … )
Λοιπόν, λέει μία παροιμία: ρωτήσανε μία καμήλα αν προτιμά την ανηφόρα ή την κατηφόρα και απάντησε ΦΥΣΙΚΑ .. Καλέ; χάθηκε το ίσιωμα;
΄Κατά τον ίδιο τρόπο σου απαντώ: ούτε η γύμνια είναι “καλή” αλλά ούτε και το “φάσκιωμα” λες και η άνθρωπος θέλει να μιμηθεί τις μούμιες του φαραώ, απο το πολύ το ντύσιμο. (Συγγνώμη για το ύφος μου, δεν κοροϋδεύω αλλά γράφω αυτό που σκέφτομαι και κυρίως η εντύπωση που μου δημιουργείται απο το υπερβολικό ντύσιμο του “ισλάμ”?)
Αν ο Θεός μας ήθελε τόσο πολύ ντυμένους, θα γεννιώμασταν με … ρούχα! ή τελος πάντων με κάποια στολή και όχι απολύτως γυμνοί…!…Καθώς είναι Πάνσοφος και Παντεπόπτης….
Όσο για τον ΕυρωπαΪκό ιμπεριαλισμό, λέω ότι και το Ισλάμ, διαδώθηκε με το ξίφος του και τον ιμπεριαλισμό του. Οπότε, για τα δικά μου μάτια, τους βάζω και τους δύο στο ίδιο σακκί και δεν προσπαθώ να ωραιοποιήσω το ένα και να δαιμονοποιήσω το άλλο. Θέλω Δικαιοσύνη και κοιτάω τα πάντα ισόρροπα και όχι μονόφθαλμα, όπως κάνουν όσοι ασπάζονται το Ισλάμ (ή κάποια άλλη θρησκεία που έχει σκοπό την καταστροφή εκ των έσω του Ευρωπαϊκού Πολιτισμού)
Το αν χρησιμοποιείται το σεξ για την μαζική αποχάυνωση των ανθρώπων σε αυτό δεν φταίει ο Ευρωπαϊκός πολιτισμός αλλά κάποιοι άνθρωποι που δεν έχουν ιερό και όσιο και μπροστά στο κέρδος δεν έχουν αφήσει κανένα ανθρώπινο επίτευγμα που να μην το καταστρέψουν, διαστρέφοντας το και χρησιμοποιώντας το βγάζοντας χρήματα. Και το ανθρώπινο σώμα είναι ιερό και όταν βεβηλώνεται κατά αυτον τον τρόπο: είτε ξεγυμνώνοντας το ή ντύνοντας το σαν “μούμια”, γίνεται προβληματικό. Αρχίζει η γυναίκα (και ο άνδρας) με το πρώτο να γίνεται ξεδιάντροπη-ος και με το δεύτερο να έχει ψυχολογικό πρόβλημα με το σώμα της/του – με όλα τα παρεπόμενα. Άρα, όπως έιπε και η καμήλα, ναι στην σεμνότητα με ΜΕΤΡΟ όχι στην σεμνοτυφία και στην ξεδιαντροπιά.
Τώρα, αν οι μουσουλμάνοι της Γαλλίας δεν αισθάνονται σαν το σπίτι τους τότε να αρχίσουν να πηγαίνουν στα σπίτια τους, δηλαδή, στις χώρες από τις οποίες κατάγωνται.
Οταν για παράδειγμα, η οικογένεια μου και εγώ μέναμε στην Αιθιοπία ως προσφυγες του πολέμου που ήμασταν με την γερμανική και ιταλικη και βουλγαρική κατοχή του Β’ ΠΠ. και αρχίσαμε να μην αισθανόμαστε σαν στο σπίτι μασ στην Αιθιοπία, φύγαμε και ήρθαμε στην Ελλάδα μας, μετά από 30 χρόνια, ξενιτιάς.
Απλά, πραγματάκια. Το ίδιο να κάνουν και οι μουσουλμάνοι της Γαλλίας και κάθε άλλης ΕυρωπαΪκής χώρας. Ή θα σεβαστούν τους νόμους και τα ήθη και έθιμα μας ή να πάνε στις πατρίδες τους.
Όσο για τους γηγενείς ευρωπαίους που ασπάζονται το Ισλάμ, έχουν μία φανταστική ευκαιρία να γονιμοποιήσουν τον Ισλαμικό Λόγο με την ΕυρωπαΪκή φιλοσοφική και πολιτισμική κουλτούρα., Αν δεν θέλουν να το κάνουν αυτό, θα ήταν πιο έντιμο να πάρουν το δισάκι τους και να φύγουν για την πνευματική τους πατρίδα, τον Ισλαμικό κόσμο ή όπου αλλού νομίζουν.
Όπως, υπάρχουν νόμοι ήθη και έθιμα στον Ισλαμικό κόσμο που απαιτούν να τους σεβαστούμε, με τον ίδιο τρόπο απαιτούμε όλοι εμείς οι Ευρωπαίοι να σεβαστείτε τους νόμους μας και κυρίως τα ήθη και τα έθιμα μας. (παρεπιπτόντως το ξεγύμνωμα δεν είναι και δεν αποτελεί έθιμο, αλλά φαινομενο των καιρών μας, που εύχομαι να ξεπεραστεί όπως και κάθε άλλη μόδα, προς κάτι πιο ουσιώδες και σωστό)
It is humiliating for a woman to tell her “Undress to accept you”. Is it really the same to say “dress to accept you?”
Το δήλημμα αυτό είναι αστείο και μόνο να το θέτει κάποιος. Και λίγη χρήση της μέσης οδού δεν είναι πρόβλημμα. Αν δεν σας επιτρέπουν να φοράτε αυτά που θέλετε, βρείτε μία μέση οδό, το να τα φοράτε και να μην τα φοράτε. Νομίζω, ότι είσαστε έξυπνοι άνθρωποι και καταλαβαίνετε τί εννοώ.
Βρείτε μία μέση όδο και όχι το μονοπάτι του Πολιτισμικού Πολέμου αυτού που ευαγγελίζονται όλοι όσοι έιναι άθεοι, κ.α. που σκοπός τους είναι η καταστροφή των πολιτισμών και θρησκειών με στόχο την μαζοποίηση των ανθρώπων προς ένα και μόνο σκοπό της ζωής τους, Τον καταναλωτισμό, την μία και μόνη θρησκεία (δεν προβλέπεται να είναι η δική σας…) την μία παγκόσμια κυβέρνηση, την μία παγκόσμια αστυνομία … θα σας άρεσε να ζούμε σε έναν τέτοιο κόσμο; Εμένα ΌΧΙ εσάς.;
Αν όχι, τότε αφήστε το μονοπάτι της σύγκρουσης με τον ΕυρωπαΪκό και Δυτικο πολιτισμό, χαμηλώστε τους τόνους, γιατί κάποιοι άλλοι πίσω από τις πλάτες μας καραδωκούν να μας επιβάλλουν πράγματα που μία μέρα θα κλαίμε και θα μουτζώνουμε τους εαυτούς μας για αυτές τις σαχλαμάρες με τις οποίες καταπιανόμαστε.
good evening :
I`m arabic muslim and
I can understand the french side
at first there is a lot of immigrant muslims live in france by legal and illegal ways
just I want to say they should respect the others culture as they seek the same
why they chose to stay if they are n`t comfortable
specially those people who live by illegal way
and those who live legally why they did not come back home after they completed their study
and help the people in their countries
at the end I want to say that wearing of al burga or khemar it`s not obligatory in islam so what`s the point here !!why they are insisted to wear it ?just to arouse more conflicts and widen the gap between both sides
Pierra……….I appreciate you ‘responding’ to the comment I have made. I feel honored that you may have gone out your way and took a second or two to acknowledge it, even though it was just stating a true contradictory stance that France and her likes take on the topic of “Freedoms”. I really wasn’t asking a question, but once again as I said, I was just stating the undeniable present ground facts. But now, since you have ‘responded’ to me with comments evading the issues I have brought up by conjuring up things such as “Islamic” countries, my level of Europeoness and Ipiro, this prompts me to really ask a question that is now naturally fit and duly deserves to receive a response. I really do not know how you are going to reconcile the Freedom France claims and the banning of Muslims’ attire (let us not forget, France wants ALL Muslim attire banned for women NOT just burqa)? Is France then a Free country or a country that respects human rights? What do we mean when we say freedom? Freedom for what and whom? Obviously FREEDOM here has a vague meaning. Everything would be ok if France came out and said……”hey, you know what, Muslims cannot wear their dress because we are not free in France to personal rights. We also are not free to that or this”….and so on. But you see what happens is that France and her likes are hypocrite liars and paper mache puppet who sit in the UN and call for human rights with tongue in cheek and fingers crossed! They say one thing but mean something else. Now in the Muslim world with all its vast pluralistic cultural pockets there is no such silly claim to any ABSOLUTE freedoms. (And here to correct your mistake, there are NO “Islamic” countries, just countries full of Muslims. To be an Islamic state entails to have a khilafet and Sharia 100% laws. No such nation exists today. Let’s keep our facts straight here as this is very important not to get into semantic gymnastics). In fact NO PLACE IN THE WORLD fits such a model. Why would we claim something we know is impossible? But yet places like France PLAY savior on World stage to such absurd claims yet when you reach its doorstep there is a different bleak truth that greets you. Oh by the way, tell me which country in the Muslim world YOU HAVE GONE TO AND ARE WITNESS that you cannot dress the way you want? Turkey? Egypt? Algeria? Tunisia? Syria???……..I only know 2 or 3 countires from the 10’s of Muslim filled countries that have dress codes. Heck, some even have naked beeches like Greece! Now, let me ask you another question which you can really answer me. Why countries like France are making such laws and rules??? Is it to get revenge on the Muslims for something they have done bad? Is it because the Muslims colonized them and killed, raped and genocided them like they did the Muslims of North Africa, West Africe, the Levant and so on???
And about what idiosyncracies are you talking about? This has nothing to do with idiosyncracies of Europeons or whoever. It is just pure idiocy. I am sorry to tell you. It is insecurity on their part. Perhaps it is subconsciously due to the guilt of their historical black past against the Muslims that all these pathetic racist and fascist like ideas spring up as a means to avoid redressing it? I do not know and frankly do NOT care. If they have issues and skeletons in ther closets, the rest of the world is not here to be their psychologist. Let France and her likes stand up like men or the lions they claim and pretend to be and stop acting like sissies afraid of a piece of cloth. They have more serious issues to deal with. Akous ekei…..”oson afora tin exartisia tous stin eleftheria kai tin anexartisia tou atomou”………nai, arkei min in Musulmanos. Kala sovaroloyite!
One last thing………..why in your last statement did you fly from France to Greece and Ipiro? Do you feel a connection with the actions of France and those of Greece subconsciously?? Why bring up Greece and Ipiro when we are specifically talking about a French phenomenon. Greece after all has not outlawed Islamic garb……….why the connection? Do you feel Greece should follow suit??? No……No…..I do not think you feel that. I am pretty sure of that because you would not even be present in our forum if you were not a at least a little open minded. I hope at least I am right on this point……….InshaAllah (God Willing).
My dear Heba,
I agree with you, IT IS understandable from their spectrum, but that does not mean it is acceptable from us…..ESPECIALLY by Force. And the route France is taking is straight from that spectrum to force. All along that particular path you will ONLY find oppression. It is this path’s only fruits. May God protect all humans from zulm!
“Άννα S, μου, (θα σου απαντήσω στα Ελληνικά, γιατί νιώθω άνετα με την μητρική γλώσσα μου και κυρίως γράφω και εκφράζομαι γρηγορότερα – είναι ζήτημα χρόνου και ευκολίας. Συν ότι βλέπω ότι καταλαβαίνεις Ελληνικά … αν και βλέπω ότι απαξιείς να τα μιλάς και να τα γράφεις … )”
Ξέρεις ότι δεν το αξίζω αυτό, ποτέ δε σου έδωσα τέτοιο δικαίωμα, έχουμε περισσότερους αναγνώστες από τους Ελληνόφωνους και γι αυτό εμείς γράφουμε στα αγγλικά, κρίμα πάντως….
good evening :
well I can see things from their spectrum but it doesn`t mean It is acceptable for me
but I think that if we really don`t want to reach to dead end we should understand each other on basis of other culture respect
and I agree that you can wear what you ever want in our countries except mecca of course
and agree that there is no islamic countries but there is countries full of muslims
Anna wrote;
And one last thing. Who invited all these Muslims in France? Have you heard about the brutal colonialism? What did they expect? To have all Muslim generations slaves forever? France owes to this Muslim population that fed the French population for so many years, and for the blood of all these who defended their land that the occupation forces took this from them. How should they treat the Muslimas in France? do we have still colonialism???
Shouldn’t your line of reasoning also apply to the Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey whose is still ill treated by the Turks? How much Greek land has been taken away, religious freedoms restricted, theological schools closed and churches converted to Mosques; we need only look at history to teach us the truth. You want to ignore Muslim history of conquest under the Ottomans and only blame the bad old colonial European powers without acknowledging Islams ugly and brutal history.
ok Son of Sparta, why do you put muslims always as Turks??? When you will realize that we are not Turks, but we are MUSLIMS. Do you think that choosing Islam is a choice that harms one’s homecountry???
Please you must go on and leave this fantasy behind, this does not exist.
I wish the world was not imperialistic but it has been since ever! And we Greeks oppressed, and harmed people during our expanding campaigns. You think the whole world loves us? I wish they would, but they do not.
Being Muslim means surrendering yourself to God. And I am not oblidged to have as reference point your thoughts, i have mine. We were talking about France. How do you feel that 1 million people fell to free their land from the french? They were muslims and the oppressors were christians. Is that better or worse? Oppression has no colour and religion. I prefer to live free in spirit as Greek and condemn oppression wherever it comes.
SonofSparta…………….I am in no way defending the secular state of Turkey but just to see your weight on this off the topic non-primary issue and red herring of Turkey, I have a question. First of all…………..have you EVER been to Turkey???
To clarify Anna, I am not arguing that all Greek Muslims are Turks (although some are) nor am I confusing the secular state of Turkey as Hayrullah suggests as representing Muslim Turks. What I emphasize is a Christian minority perspective, which is similar what many argue from the Muslim forum perspective, that is the hypocrisy of freedom. Those ‘Islamic nations’ or nations with majority Muslim populations are just as hypocritical to ‘religious rights’ as is Western Europe and ‘Christian’ nations. No one wants to acknowledge that until Western nations and Muslim nations or secular nations like Turkey get their act together and start treating religious minorities with respect and allow more religious autonomy only then will people be ‘free’ to live in accordance to whatever religious belief they choose. However there is a great double standard on both sides and until such time that East and West truly come to terms with their religious and cultural minorities there will continue to be clashes of culture and religion. I don’t know if it is even possible to have a society where no religion is dominate and all are free, since all religions are motivated to spread their belief, and if all the various religious people live in accordance to their own interpretation of God’s law then you will only have conflict. The reason I say conflict is that although each religion shares a great many values, many have unique laws that are the antithesis of others belief systems.
Here is a interesting news link below in the current English weekly Athens News where the Christian minority is asking for their right to hold a liturgy in Hagia Sophia …. MEMBERS of The lnternational Congregation of Agia Sofia (ICAS) on September 17 unveiled their plan to visit Istanbul in a year’s time to conduct a liturgy at the holy church, the first since its seizure by the Ottoman Turkish forces on May 29, 1453
http://www.athensnews.gr/articles/13356/20/09/2009/2484
SoS, I’d recommend that you watch the movie called “Dogville”. This movie describes the condition of humanity perfectly, trying to show that the human will never accept “failure”, and will even do wrong to show he is right, and that “double standards” will not just be put aside, because the human is a hypocrite (no one excluded to my opinion, except a very few). I’m not saying this as an excuse, don’t get me wrong, I’m just saying that maybe we should find a way to make the human honest again instead of just arguing the one with the other about who is right or wrong, and who has more double standards than the other, this doesn’t make sense anyway, and it does not bring the discussion to any benefit for any one of the human kind.
Again, don’t get me wrong, this is not a personal attack, nor am I saying that I am in any way better than you, it’s rather just an observation.
Anyway, wouldn’t you agree with my thesis?
P.S.: I hope I make some sense
So………..SonofSparta I guess the answer is NO. I am getting the impression that you are talking about a place as if you have visited and know it like the back of your hand yet you have not set foot in it. Now, what does this all mean? You tell me…..
I agree with Amir and his words actually are very beautiful and to the point. Honesty. Honesty. Very important and crucial because without this there can be no REAL peace.
On a personal note……….I DID go to Turkey a few times and was there in fact this past April. I went to Greece as well and visited the Tzizdaraki Mosque museum. It happened when I was in Turkey that I went to Agia Sofia museum and to many other functioning Eastern Orhtodox churches during their Easter week along with thousands of visitors from Greece. The churchbells were ringing non-stop and the small room set aside for liturgy of Christians at Agia Sofia was full of worshippers as where about 10 churches just around my hotel. In the article you pasted it was interesting to see Mr. Spyrou refer to the Islamic tenets of basic human rights enshrined in the books of Islam to request a right to have a liturgy in the Museum of Agia Sofia. I thank the man for takng his time to acknowledge that. Tat was very scholarly of him. And very wise of him to present it to the secular Turkish state who acts otherwise and contrary to Islam. But where the real honesty, as my Brother Amir talks about, I would have to say should lie at the root of the problem…………………If it is even acknowledged by non-Muslims that Islam protects and respects the right of the human being to believe and act on his/her beliefs as long as it is not directly detrimental to life, can the non-Muslim show with DEFINITE proof where the same right is ENSHRINED for others from his/her belief??? Where does it say for example…….”DO NOT bar them from their places of worship………or…..do not force/compel them toward a certain faith………or…….if your opponent ceass fighting you, stop fighting them, feed them, cloth them and treat them fairly, and educate them”? If a claimer comes along and claims something lets be honest and fair to measure them according to their own claimed standard.
Oh one last thing. I have told you before, quite a few times if you can recall. We are not Turkish citizens, nor do we work for Turkey or defend it. We are Muslims. Many are Greek Muslims and others are guest Muslims. Yet we WILL continue to call a spade a spade………just because we are practicing Muslims, by heart and mind not just by name.
Peace be upon you.
Amir Abdullah I find nothing you write as a personal attack and I hope you feel the same way in my responses. For the most part our disagreements are political in nature and although we may not solve the worlds problems online I do believe in the time honoured traditions of the Greek philosophers that through dialogue there can result a synthesis between one’s thesis and another’s antithesis.
Amir Abdullah wrote:
SoS, I’d recommend that you watch the movie called “Dogville”. …I’m just saying that maybe we should find a way to make the human honest again instead of just arguing the one with the other about who is right or wrong, and who has more double standards than the other, this doesn’t make sense anyway, and it does not bring the discussion to any benefit for any one of the human kind.
^^ I am unaware of the film you mention but I definately will try to track it down and watch it.
I agree with you on the principle of being honest and I believe most people of all faiths as well as those who are secular want honesty as well as justice. The problem arises as to how we go about to achieve a just society. We all look at minorities from our own individual perspective, as well as our ethnic group perspective and our religious group perspective. I don’t necessarily agree that “just arguing the one with the other about who is right or wrong, and who has more double standards than the other” is the wrong aproach only because bringing up similar issues minorities face in reverse situation and thus highligts the hypocracy of all peoples and societies. When everyone acknowledges this fact then perhaps a just solution can be found. In other words if the plight of the Greek Orthodox minority in Constantinople is looked upon in the exact same manor as the plight of the Muslim minority in Athens then perhaps a solution can be found. People say why bring this up? It is the same reason that many in the Middle East bring up the Palestinian issue, without a resolution that is fair to both Chritian and Muslims minorities world wide there will continue to be mistrust between our two religions even though this is not what the majority of people want. What we all want is as you saidm honesty and what I add that is the concept of universal justice. Hopefully one day we can achieve this in all nations, and all minorities can feel free to practice their belief in complete freedom, until such times there will always be underlying tensions.
To answer your question Hayrullah I have not had the opportunity to visit Turkey however as I have mention in other post I know many Greeks in the diaspora who were from Constantinople and Northern Cyprus as well as my long deceased priest who was one of the last clergy to have studied at the theological school of Halki. I need not remind you of what happen to our people over there and despite you listening to church bells of a few remaining churches allowed to be open there is restricted freedom of the Orthodox church in the first capital of Christiandom, so lets be honest. Remember honesty? That which Amir Abdullah argues is humanity’s greatest desire, the Greek community of Constantinople which numbered in the hundreds of thousands in the 1920s is down to 3,000 today. So much for Christian Orthodox freedom in Turkey. The true reason why Athens has no Mosque is mainly because of the 400 years of Ottoman occupation and the bloody wars between Greek Christians and Turkish Muslims. If such a time comes when resolution of the minority Chritian community is achieved in Turkey then I can guarantee you a similar response will occur in Greece towards the Muslim community, if however Turkey keeps surpressing the Chritian population, Greece will not move much towards laying out the welcome mat to its Muslim population.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7701527.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7156590.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7368020.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7355515.stm
God Willing you be fortunate enough one day SonofSparta to go and see for yourself if the claims people make are true or not instead of just passing on what you HEAR. That is all I have to say. As for your priest, Halki, friends from North Cyprus etc……….remember there are TWO sides to a coin. There are lost homelands on TWO sides here…….lost glories on TWO sides….innocent blood shed on TWO sides. I accept the fact that injustices were committed on both sdes……..do you?? I am as honest as I can be. Let’s see. I have gone to Turkey. You have not. You condemn the acts of the Turkish state, but NOT Greece. I condemn both for their acts towards minorities. You talk about glories of one era at the expense of the other. I say the good and the bad of both (as I have thoroughly dealt with in other posts to you in Greeks Rethink, pleas refer). Yes…….lets be honest I am up for it, but I am not up to succumb to your one sidedness. I mean it does not take a scholar to see where the balance is tilted.
In my village 30 years ago there were 200 families. Now there are only 25 people. There is a whole array of reasons why people left………economical, societal, education, opportunities. Turkey is a secular state. It does not care what people practice as long as they are not trying to ruin that Kemalist secular regime and system. Turkey is MOST harsh on practicing Muslims than non-Muslims. Religious minority dwindling numbers in a SECULAR society mean something else is the problem (or better yet the situation) than a mere attack on it for the sake of the religion’s name. When I was in Istanbul this year I met a girl with her boyfriend. They traveled to Istanbul from Greece. Her family lived in Istanbul and she was a college student in Greece. She brought her boyfriend from Greece to visit Turkey for a month. I was in a coffee shop and I heard them talking Greek. They thought I was Turk and the girl made a slight insulting comment about me to her boyfriend about my faith and my beard. After a while I spoke to them. I told them I was Muslim from Greece and that I live in the US. I als told them that I was happy to see how openly they practiced their faith in Turkey and e carried on a conversation. Then I asked her, so do you consider yourself a Greek or a Turk. She said I am GREEK and PROUD unlike you who are now a Turk and a traitor, and she rolled her eyes at me. I asked her if she says that to the authorities aswell when she travels back and forth from Turkey. She said yes (now I do not know if this is true or not). I also proceeded to ask her what she knows about Islam. SHE KNEW NOTHING! And again said she didn’t care. I told her peace unto you. It is just this kind of chauvinistic attitude that may be some of the root of problems…….this nationalism.
In all honesty Turkey seems to be taking steps to address their issues with minorities. Why is Greece lagging behind??? And once again. We are Greek citzens who are Muslims, not Turkish citizens. Why should it be up to Turkey to make a move for us to get our due rights. This is unfair and very unjust. This is a Greek affair for us to get our mosque, and our graveyards and our centers.
And one more thing……..more important than the act of carrying on dialogue as you say which were emphasized by ancient philosophers is to come to the table with honesty, PURE AND UPRIGHT intention founded on the upright human nature. Two liars can have a dialogue….no big deal. All they do is just lie to each other, but yet they still carry on a dialogue. Politicians are especially experts at this.
May peace find you whereever you are and may it find you.
Now I think we should get bak to the isue of France and the Islamic dress and stop chasing red herrings around. Do you not agree?
Hayrullah you touch upon various topics. First off, although it is great that you had the opportunity to travel this does not make you more of an expert on Turkish history and culture simply by having visited the place. You may accuse me all you like of being one sided, however all I am doing is bringing balance to this forum. Yes there are two sides to every coin, your forum points out the wrongs of the West and the Greek state, I point out the opposite. Now you mentioned, “Turkey seems to be taking steps to address their issues with minorities.” Exactly where have you read or seen this?
In regards to France as the article points out “French discomfort with organized religion, dating from the 1789 revolution and the disestablishment of the Roman Catholic Church, is aggravated by these foreign customs, which are associated in the Western mind with repression of women.” It is my understanding that the ‘burqa’ and `niqāb’ are a cultural garment and not necessarily associated with Islam. So since you believe nationalism and culture is a ‘kind of chauvinistic attitude” wouldn’t you therefore conclude that the lady’s attitude here is one that believes her culture and dress code is better than the country she choose to immigrate to? In fact the lady who wants to wear the ‘burqa’ or `niqāb’ is just as PROUD as the lady you met in Turkey with her boyfriend who you look down upon for having an attitude that differed from yours. You see its not just nationalism but also religious fundamentalism that is just as extreme and unreasoning. Furthermore there is something to be said of a society that has women completely covered with only eyes exposed. Surely not all Muslims believe this is normal, many say it is cultural. So why should France allow such a severe dress code which disguises identity to flourish in their country, the birthplace of modern civil liberties? If the children of these women go to school dressed like this they will never develop to understand liberty and freedom of the modern state of France. But since you don`t believe in nationalism or state laws this is OK by your line of reasoning for the only law you seem to care about is the one in your holy book and no other. This dress code forced upon women by culture is plain psychological abuse. Did God command this? Certainly not the One I believe in.
No, I am not more of an expert and never have I claimed such, just an eye witness and not a victim of mere hearsay. The only mistake I made was CHASING after YOUR red herrings when you were actually off the topic of France from the get-go because from previous experiences with you on the greeks rethink dealing with THE VERY SAME AND SIMILAR TOPICS (tangents) it is evident that you are antagonistic towards anything to do with Islam. And it is nothing to do with any type of “balance” you are trying to bring to the THIS forum, as if anyone even asked you to be some kind of equilibrium standard. You are here to argue. Is this perhaps due to some identity insecurity or a perceived threat to some of your ideals, I do not know. There is a difference between taking a stance on something for the mere sake of it and apologetics backed by evidence that can pass under a litmus test.
I have not READ nor HEARD the steps Turkey is taking, I have SEEN it. It just seems interesting to me when you can go to Izmir and partake in a Christian liturgy in the Church of Mary or at the Sumela Monastery but if you try to do the same at the Suleiman mosque of Athens you ae not allowed. Now why Turkey is taking these steps and for how long they will continue, I must be fair and say……..I do not know. What matters RIGHT NOW is that they are.
Of course EVERYONE believes that their own way of thought or life is better than the ‘others’ but you have missed the boat here. I repeat again………..Muslim dominant countries do not PRETEND to be “free spirited ” and “democratic” countries while prohibiting others’ way of life. My whole point (please refer back) is that France is a hypocrit and a liar.
Now the lady in Turkey was proud at my expense after she insulted my look and my faith. And guess what……she was free IN TURKEY to do that! Yes! In her OWN native land! In Islam every person is first seen as a human being, not to what sect, tribe, race etc. he/she belongs to as is evident in the way the Quran talks straight to mankind. Nationalism is pure exclusive to ‘others’.
France wants to ban all Islamic head dress, not just burqa (if you even know what that is), lets get our facts straight. And again, how will you reconcile the birthplace of “civil liberties” and these recent actions/desires of France, I am waiting in anticipation to see. You will be the first to reconcile this irony. As I said before, lene ke xelene. No the children of these women who wear hijab WILL never understand and know freedom because the French state will refuse them their basic right to believe what thay want to as to how they cloth their body! ALL Muslim women will be oppressed ……………veiled one who will be forced to take their coverings off and the unveiled ones who if ever they desire or whenever they feel they WANT to wear veils will not be allowed to!……..once again in France who CLAIMS and BOASTS “civil rights” NOT in Saudia or Iran who never make such a claim.
And one last thing……….what one sees on the outside as psychological abuse another looking through the veil feels freedom. Go ask the women themselves who wear the veil how they feel about it. Trust me, you do not worry more about them than they do for their own selves. Hopefully, you have the decency to at least acknowledge them their right to expalin WHY they chose their way of life.
I have not READ nor HEARD the steps Turkey is taking, I have SEEN it. It just seems interesting to me when you can go to Izmir and partake in a Christian liturgy in the Church of Mary or at the Sumela Monastery but if you try to do the same at the Suleiman mosque of Athens you are not allowed.
^^Well then if a traveller went to Thrace and saw the Muslim community there with their functioning Mosques and schools would you then also conclude that at least Greece is taking steps with its minority Muslims? Funny how you didn’t look for the Orthodox theological school in Constantinople that was shut down by that state, or the Haigia Sophia turned into a Mosque or the fact that the city that had over 300,000 Greek Orthodox Christians at the turn of the last century now only has 3000 Greeks living over there or the fact that the Patriarch has to be approved by Turkish authorities. Remember in the Sophocles play Oedipus had eyes but it took a blind prophet to show the king what is reality. In other words you are ‘seeing’ what you want to see and not necessarily the reality of the Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey. Perhaps reading some history books may enlighten you.
“Muslim dominant countries do not PRETEND to be “free spirited” and “democratic” countries while prohibiting others’ way of life. My whole point (please refer back) is that France is a hypocrite and a liar.”
^^ Perhaps the French state is hypocritical but so too are Muslim nations that declare their religion is one of peace. The reason the Greeks don’t buy the ‘peace’ reference is because of our history and being enslaved by the Ottomans. Let me also add this footnote, France and other Western countries are not pretending to be democratic, they may not be truly democratic at this point at time but at least they strive towards democratic principles. However we cannot let our open society be taken over by political movements like dictatorships or political ideologies that restrict personal freedom, nor can we allow religious movements that take away civil liberties. You may argue a women has the right to be covered up, but is this truly her free will? How many horror stories do we hear of Muslim women beaten for not wearing proper clothing? How do we know if a woman is being beating behind closed doors by her husband or other male family members simply because she has brought ‘shame’ by not being ‘modestly’ dressed? Too many factors come into play with this restricted clothing dress code, left over by long ago dessert peoples traditions that date back over millennia and that have been incorporated into a religion. This aspect of Islamic Law runs in total contradiction to Western Law. You say it’s a religious freedom for a woman to be dressed head to toe in such clothes, but at what age does this female’s freedom start at, 12, 16, 21? What happens if a teenager runs to the police and says her parents are forcing her to wear such clothes? What if the police interfere on behave of a rebellious female teenager, then you will have some people saying the police are getting involved in family or cultural Muslim manners. What happens if a married women no longer wants to be dressed this way would she be able to choose freely to wear ‘Western’ instead?
Let’s be honest, this dress code comes from male dominated societies in Arab lands that puts very little emphasises on women’s rights and only wants women to be married and have 5 children each. Look at all the fundamentalist Islamic nations and look at the status of women over there. Now you want to bring that backward way of thinking into the modern West. If you believe on France is being hypocritical and Muslims are not acting hypocriticaly as well, then you fail to understand this subject from a Western perspective. If religion dominates society as it does in some Islamic nations then our way of life, our rights and freedoms are all subject to be eroded and or destroyed by Islamic laws that are the antithesis in many respects to Western laws and traditions.
Same circular arguments, off the topic tangents, haze around terms and their meanings (semantic gymnastics), accusations without substantial evidence, logical fallacies, mere hearsay wrapped up in a cloak of ignorance with an air of “I am not interested in explanations, just here to attack for some very needed reason” . In conclusion…… Useless non-productive, non-educational needle stuck on the record rhetoric. But once again thanks again for being an avid visitor to this site. It is apleasure to know that we are so important to you that you honor us. May you find peace so that it can emanate from you to others