Shocking stories told by Greek activists who returned back to Athens
June 2, 2010 by ImanK
Source: Enet.gr
© Translation Muslim Association of Greece
The first six Greek activists condemned the illegal detention of the Greeks at Ashdod port in Israel and the violence they faced after their arrival at the airport Eleftherios Venizelos this morning. They characterized Israel’s action as “piracy” and they stressed that the ships carried only humanitarian aid and were thoroughly checked before departing from their ports.
As Aristidis Papadokostopoulos stated, on the Greek ship was humanitarian aid, wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and medical supplies.
According to the activist when the ship was raided by the Israelis, the Free Mediterranean was 70 miles away from the waters of Gaza.
He described the Israeli actions as “clearly piratical” and underlined that “we can not allow Israel to play the role of the policeman.”
On his part, activist D. Gelalis from Larissa said that “around four o’clock in the morning we saw inflatable boats everywhere approaching us and within seconds fully armed commandos boarded the vessel.”
Activists also tell of beatings and use of electric shock and said, “We didn’t even have the right to get up of the chair. We had to raise our hands to use the toilet.”
The rest of the Greeks which are illegally detained will be brought against Israeli justice as Thanos Petrogiannis, an engineer from the Greek university, stressed.
“We went to offer help. According to the Israelis 80 miles away from the land is considered Israeli international waters and that we had entered their country illegally,” he said.
He continued by saying, “The ones who are still detained refused to sign any papers given to them by the Israelis. They will be taken to court in about 10-15 days.”
He added, “That the humanitarian aid carried by the ships bound for the Gaza strip has been seized.”
The use of violence from the Israeli commandos was condemned by the activist Michalis Grigoropoulos.
“We were in international waters. The Israelis hijacked our ship. They took us hostage as they kept aiming guns at our heads,” he said. He continued by saying that, “I was the steersman of the boat. They descended from the helicopters dropping and threw tear gas. We didn’t resist, we couldn’t do anything against the commandos.“
He also witnessed the use of electroshock to whoever tried to create a human shield in front of the bridge. Concerning the conditions of the detainment he said, “They wouldn’t even let us use the toilet, eat or drink water as they also made videos of us.
As far as the confiscation of the humanitarian aid and other personal belongings is concerned Michalis Grigoropoulos stated, “They confiscated everything. They left nothing but my papers. They took mobiles, laptops, cameras and personal belongings.”
He also said that he refused to sign papers submitted to him by the Israelis and he was removed against his will.
”They did not let me contact my lawyer or even the Greek embassy,” he said. He continued by accusing the Greek government by saying that, “Taken to trial will be the ones who refused to sign Israeli documents. The Greek government has done nothing to safeguard the Greek ships. They did not do anything to prevent them from jumping on our ships.”
Israeli claims
On the other side, the spokesman of the defence ministry in Israel, Sady Muoni, speaking on NET, said that the passengers of the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara aimed at provoking us.
He insisted that the occupants of the ship tried to lynch the Israeli soldiers while he claimed that an activist fired first.
Following that, Muoni added that the soldiers had to use violence.
Greek protest
The ambassador of Greece in Israel responded to the illegal detainment of Greek activists by Israel with a protest, calling for their immediate release.
He states that the arrest of the activists took place in international waters and that Israel could not ask from the detainees to sign documents for attempting to enter the country illegally.
According to the latest reports, 610 people have been transferred to Dire Sheva prison and held as prisoners until their cases are heard by the Israeli court.
Amongst the 610 prisoners are 31 Greeks, in which the Greek ambassador of Tel Aviv is going to visit.
From their part, Israeli authorities note that they are not held as prisoners but detained in a specially designed place in prisons.
Even though the custody of the Greek activists remains unclear, in Jerusalem and in parts of Northern Israel, Israeli Arabs are protesting against the bloody attack against the Freedom Flotilla.
Translated by Julie Jalloul
Alsalam aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatu, What I read in our website is just a taste of our palestinian brethren suffer everyday and a test to our Muslim brethren overall. Coinsidentally I,m reading a book called In search for Fatima by ghada karmi and before some months the Protocols of the sophists of zion as well as the new era of the protocols both written by d liakopoulos and in these readings the true face of this inhuman beings is mirrored so we just pray to Allah Allmighty to handles them accordingly as He knows best. My sincere condolances to everybody who suffered a loss and my commiseration to those who suffered the arrogance of those inhumane beings your sister in Islam
In a protest in occupied Palestine against the detention of the activists; one American art student lost her eye after a Zionist soldier fired a tear-gas canister right in her face.
http://demosthenes.blogspot.com/2010/06/anti-israel-activist-loses-her-eye-for.html
Her name is Emily and this is her website:
http://thirstypixels.blogspot.com/
I have returned (as I now have a computer that works!)
People have the right to self determination, this is a concept that goes way back to Greek antiquity. The Palestinians should be free to form their own nation. It’s too bad many in this forum see ‘nationalism’ as being a bad thing, so I have been told by many. Funny how some can support the plight of the Palestinians (perhaps because the majority are Muslim,) but when I mentioned how the Ottoman Turks held the Greeks enslaved for 400 years people here defend the Ottomans!! Seems to me, some Muslims in this forum actually favour nationalism, as long as it is Muslim state and not another religious or secular state.:)
Welcome back SOS. You really know how to move every topic into the Turks and Ottomans LOL. I wonder what you will do with an article about strawberries.
As for your loaded question, well, we’ve been through this conversation so many times and from the way you worded it, it still seems you don’t understand what we believe. I’m too tired to go into circles again.
At least SonofSparta can offer some amusement in these difficult times (sorry SoS, no offence intended, though I really can have a laugh with…what sis Iman also mentioned, you turning everything into the Ottoman issue, which has nothing to do with the Israel-Palestinian issue).
Peace unto the world!!!
I am glad to offer you amusement Amir Abdullah, as some in this forum offer me amusement at times with their contradictory viewpoints. However I do agree the issue of the Palestinians is extremely difficult at present, and many Christians as well as others of various faiths do favour a two state solution for the region. The problem I see in the region is the extreme religious views of many Jews as well as their American Protestant Christian backers in the US who somehow believe that the holy land should only belongs to them (Hebrews) because they are the ‘chosen people’ of the Old Testiment. It is this danger, of taking words literally from the Bible, without the ability to read between the lines and understand their meaning that makes much of the Middle East the epicentre for religious intolerance. At the same time many Palestinians have used extreme violence in hopes of becoming free which does not help their situation, but at least I admit it is their nationalist desire to be free is something all people seek. Thus nationalism to preserve one’s culture is good within limits. As for the majority Palestinians religious objectives I wonder if a free Palestinian Muslim state would give any more freedom to the Christian Palestinians. Let’s not forget the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as you may recall was vandilized in 2002 by Palestian fighters, who also held hostages while fighting with the Israels.
NO one was held hostage, the monks were free to leave if they want- however risking getting shot by the IDF and several did leave; gave statements to TV reporters and willingly returned back to the church, that proves they were not hostages. What happened was, the fighters sought refuge in the church when the were cornered down, they didn’t specifically target the church , had it been a mosque on their path, they’d still have gone inside. Church or mosque; both Palestinian sites and they have every right to seek protection inside. Who surrounded the church and forced a siege and subsequently a gun fight? The Pal fighters or the Zionists?
You are just reciting the Israeli version of the story without getting your facts checked and we all know how honest the zionists are
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1916580.stm
Furthermore, I do not believe this the proper venue for such a discussion as this topic is about the flotilla. If you want to stray to something else; you should start your own topic or wait for something related and bring up your brainwash codswallop.
My suggestion to the moderator is to lock this topic if it’s going to attract any more side-track trolls.
One final note on the ‘Palestinian Muslim’ state. I think you’re confused between Muslim and Islamist since a Palestinian secular state is naturally a Muslim state as the majority of the population are Muslims. however if you do mean an Islamist rule following Sharia, then Christians will have all their rights granted to practise their religion openly.
That’s what the Muslim Sharia states, live and let live. Islamic rule for many centuries under the Caliphates allowed all religions their rights to build worship houses and no one was ever persecuted. They had free will whether to embrace Islam or keep to their own and no one was forced to convert.
If what you are hinting was true, there would have never been any Christians left in countries were Islam have spread and where those nations had their own traditional religion, like Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine, Cyprus, Spain and Sicily. We all know who persecuted other people of faith like Muslims and Jews and forced them to convert or practise secretly and if they refused they were killed without mercy.
Go read your history books, that is if you have any.
I’d really appreciate if this person gets banned/blocked as I have zero tolerance towards ignorant twats spreading lies.
Wellcome back SoS cybersoldier for the case of zionism.
The issue here is the collective punishment of the Gaza people imposed by the israelis through the blockade of the Gaza strip,since 2007 when Hamas winned in fair elections(although Hamas and Hizbullah in Lebanon were initially supported by Israel to counterbalance the influence of the Fattah movement).
Isolated,deprived and abandoned by the international community trigered a global protest against Israel after the Gaza raid on Jan 2009 which left 1400 Palestinians dead most of them women and children.
Humanitarian activists tried to reach Gaza by sea and the IDF(the offspring of their terrorist ancestors,Hagana and Irgun) attacked the flottila in international waters and killed in cold blood the Turkish activists in Mavi Marmara(they had been trained how to kill civilians in the past in Der Yasin,Kana,Shambra and Chatila,Ramallah,Jenin…)
Who are the terrorists SoS?
The Israeli regimes and their backers in US.Who are they?
The christian zionists of the evangelical fondamentalism in the US,the proisraeli lobby(AIPAC,and their puppets in the House of representatives and the Senate).
Jews,Christians and Muslims lived in peace in Palestine for centuries under Muslim rule(Read the document signed by the haliph Umar on the handover of Aelia Capitolina(Jerusalem)from the patriarch Sofronius.
Who persecuted the Jews?
The greeks:Antiocus epiphanes,Theodosius the great,Justinian.
From then on only the Cruades interrupted a more or less peaceful coexistence of the Abrahamic Religions in Palestine.
If you were one of the 4 million plus Palestinians in exile,if your land and property were confiscated,if your holy places desecrated,if you were detained,tortured and the tombs of your progeny vandalised,what should you do SoS?
Yes the dead on Mavi Marmara were martyrs for a just case.
And they were Turks and we honour them.And thanks to the Turkish PM
and Ahmet Davutoglou for their stance against the global state terrorist.
As for the christians in the Middle East and especially in Palestine,are they citizens of a palestinian state?They live in Israel and the occupied territories.They have israeli passports.Who force them to flee?
The Patriarchate of Jerusalem supported the palestinians(200.000 of them are orthodox christians)as the agiotaphites monks supported the fighters who entered the church of Nativity to find shelter carrying their own dead,looking at its property in east Jerusalem seized by israeli settlers or confiscated.
But I give you good marks;the lesson you were taught of how to distract a conversation to nowhere by argumentum in absurdio was executed at top level.
Nice factual answer Br. Bilal. I’m curious to see how SOS will find a way to turn that into an Ottoman issue.
bilal you make me laugh with your outrageous assumptions, I wonder what you would have labelled me during my university days back here in Toronto, when the Jewish Student Federation physically forced me out of a debate when I was defending the right of Palestinians to have a homeland over 20 years ago. You should not label someone a zionist simply because they can see the atrocities committed by both sides. I agree with your statement that the Israelis are collectively punishing the Palestinians, and in fact they don’t want free elections for the Palestinians. From my perspective it was the Northern Europeans who primarily persecuted the Jewish and the worse offenders being the Nazis. I believe this collective atrocity and punishment has created a paranoia within all Jews in general. The Jewish psyche is like someone who is violently beaten as a youth, becoming violent as an adult, the Israelis paranoia has made them no longer the victims but rather the instigators of mass violence. But if we are seeking JUSTICE, we have to apply it equally across the board. Both the Jews and the Palestinians have the right to form a nation, its not just for one and not the other. Fanaticism on both sides is why peace is so difficult.
The other reality is that this ancient land is where Judaism first took root. After all, the ancient Hebrews did create their temple of Solomon first way before the current Mosque was erected. (BTW Why is it Muslims always want to build Mosques over sites that previous belonged to another’s religion). We cannot say the Jews should not have a homeland, just as we cannot say the Palestinians cannot have a homeland. In terms of people living in peace in the middle east, I always thought whatever peace did exist during various rules, it was always short lived.
To answer your statement:
If you were one of the 4 million plus Palestinians in exile,if your land and property were confiscated,if your holy places desecrated,if you were detained,tortured and the tombs of your progeny vandalized,what should you do SoS?
As a Christian I would like to say turn the other cheek, but as a person who believes in the Classical Greek fundamentals of freedom, I would say fight for that which is just. The Israelis I would imagine would favour the old testament concept of an eye for an eye. I cannot speak for what the Muslims would favour. However if the UN was allowed to interven peace would come about more quickly, too bad the US veto is preventing justice. Having said, (this is where my Ottoman reference will be thrown in), as Greeks you should know how many Greeks were forced out of Asia minor and Constantinople in the 1800s and early 1900s. You know our land was and property was confiscated, our churches vandalized and converted. But you all collectively seem to stay away from criticizing the Turks for their occupation of our land, yet you have no problem criticizing the modern day Israelis of occupying Palestinian land. I don’t see anyone here celebrating March 25 1821, Independance day, for you have this strange notion that we Greeks should not be proud of our nation, we shouldn’t care for our historic losses since you believe nationalism is evil. Yet, when it comes to your brothers of the same faith, nationalism seems to be a good thing, how ironic you cannot see your own contradictions.
Ok, SoS, because you saved your previous comment with giving a nice comparisson from your angle, between the Ottomans and Greeks and the Israelis and Palestinians, I’ll try to do the same, in order for you to see another perspective on the same issues.
First of all, you know best that the Ottomans did not occupy Greece in 1800s and early 1900s, and that the Ottomans also did not close the boarders of Greece or the Greeks in minor Asia. Also, you, since this is your field of argumentation, know damn well that it was also our (Greeks) fault that we were driven out of Asia Minor (my grandmother is from Smyrna, so I really feel for the specific issue), rather it was the “Great Idea” that drove us to go conquer those places in Turkey where Greeks were living, leading us to war with the Turks, which lead us to be forced out of Asia Minor. And believe me, we Greek Muslims are not the only ones blaming Venizelos for being forced out (talking about myself at least, cause I don’t know what the personal stance of my other brothers and sisters is on the specific topic), it’s a bigger part of Greeks, who come to realize that it was totally stupid to just listen to the Brittish and go, just like that, and invade Turkey. Stupid, because we were not ready for something like this, and instead of getting anything possitive out of that, we just made a huger mess of it. Wouldn’t you agree? Is it the Turks per se who did wrong in forcing us out as to not create any more problems? I guess not, and from what I remember, before Venizelos actually started invading Asia Minor, the Greeks there were stinking rich, and also those in Constantinople. Stinking rich and in good relations with the Turks, and still, Greeks living in Turkey, have good relations with Turks, and Turks love Greek culture, as Greeks who have been in Turkey, love Turkish culture (and don’t tell me they are forced to).
So, making the RIGHT comparisson between the Ottoman issue and the Israeli one: The question asked will be, who has really enslaved another people?
Ottomans DID permit the Greeks to do trading, which Israel does not permit the Palestinians.
Ottomans DID NOT destroy homes of the Greeks as the Israelis do with the Palestinians.
Ottomans DID NOT destroy Greek businesses as to get Greeks to work for THEM as slaves, while Israelis do that with the Palestinians.
I think these three points are enough for the time being, and there is a lot more to discuss, but I don’t have the time right now. Just to make another point clear, personally, I totally agree with a two-state solution, but even the Israelis don’t want that, and I even think that Palestinians would not actually have a problem with such a solution. It’s just fanatics like…let me not call any names…who think that if a Muslim talks, he means that all Jews should be killed, just because this fame goes around about Muslims wanting that. I mean, come on, what did you think, that we would actually fall to the level of the Nazis and/or the Jews themselves? They are human as well, children of Adam, and it is our obligation to love them as such (brothers and sisters in humanity), but permitting violence is another thing.
Let me get back to you with more…
Wasalam.
SoS, So let me tell you another thing that will make our position much clearer.
Yes! The Ottomans were actually really stupid. Why? Because they actually trusted the Greeks!
Remember the Fanariotes? Who were Christian Greek official diplomats of the Ottoman Empire?
Weren’t those the ones that started the whole revolution, following in the footsteps of the Europeans, creating their secret society, and with the help of the European super-powers organized the revolution? You really think it has ANYTHING to do with patriotism? Or perhaps political games? Weren’t most of the great kleftes revolters actually mercenaries, who at times even fought on the side of the Ottomans for personal gain?
And guess what!!! When, at school in the 3rd lykeiou (in my class) we were told about the fanariotes, and their position in the Ottoman Empire, guess what my teacher told us as an excuse, because she didn’t understand herself why the Ottomans would trust Christian Greeks as their diplomats. She told us that the Qur’an didn’t allow the Ottomans to learn any other language????????? I mean come on!!!!! What’s up with that? How can we Greeks be serious about such…actually funny, cause that’s what these claims are, really funny…claims? And the kryfo sxolio, and that we were really slaves? You, as a Greek living abroad and having knowledge on the subject, should know very well what I’m talking about. We Greeks have been lied to by our own people about so many things, and you think we are going to give a darn about the “Great Idea” now? Give me a break.
I mean, yeah, Turks have been brutal at times, even with forced conversions etc. and killing people for various reasons, and making a mosque out of the Agia Sofia, but enslavement? Why do we have to make elephants out of flies? I don’t understand.
Anyhow, if you want true justice, you have to look at things more objectively. Let me not start with the massacres the Christian Greeks did to the Muslim (supposedly Turks, but actually) Greeks (as well). When it comes to this, and how many mosques have been destroyed in Greece, it suddenly doesn’t matter…AT ALL.
I’m not pro-Turkish, but you can’t just whipe away some things and put lies instead of them, in order for your “truth” to “make sense”, while objective history tells us otherwise.
To paraxesame to thema, I’d say.
Take care SonOfSparta.
I don’t have time right away to touch upon all your statements Amir Abdullah, but I have to say I do agree with much of what you say and I am glad to see your view is objective, although I may not agree with all your conclusions in regards to the Greek/Turkish historical view point. I do agree with what you state about the Palestinians, and I as well favour a two state solution.
In terms of history, you have to separate rhetoric taught at younger ages to what is taught at the university level. My experience has been, haven taught children periodically on the development of Greek art, that I have to simplify things to younger grades in order to teach fundamentals. Of course, some children like you were, are bright and desire a greater understanding of the course material but unfortunately these concepts are too academic even for some teachers. I have met a lot of dumb teachers over the years. Your teacher realizing you understood the material better, should have given you a more detailed analysis of the historical record, but chose not to elaborate, probably fearing it would not be understood by other students, which in my opinion is a bad teaching method.
I will address some of the other issues you brought up in the near future, but I am glad to see our desire is universal that is to achieve justice for the Palestinians as well as for ourselves and our communities.
Dear SoS,
A call to compromise from SoS…
A great achievement of br Amir Abdullah
Otherwise I had to say SoS that you’re not just prejudiced but obcessed with the Ottomans,the Turks,the Muslims.
They have commited the original sin to be the others to the West.
I noticed that the players of the greek national football team grew beards.
Muslims usually grow beards.Did they convert to Islam?What’s the role of the neo-ottomans of AKP in this act?
Lets take a closer look at the Greek Ottoman experience and compare their occupation to Palestinian occupation. In the case of the Greeks, you bring up the Fanariotes, who lived in the Fanar or Phanar district of Constantinople, who were originally employed as translators. Given the Ottoman tradition of generally ignoring Western European languages and cultures, the Turkish officials found themselves unable to handle such affairs. The Ottomans assigned those tasks to the Greeks who had a long mercantile and educational tradition and could provide the necessary skills. As a result, the so−called Phanariotes came to occupy high posts of secretaries and interpreters to Ottoman officials and officers. All empires use a select group of captured conqured people to ensure their empire laws are understood by the masses and to maintain control. Also since it was in the interest of the Ottoman Turks to expand their economy, they used Greek merchants in trade and to handle the empires banking needs. Does this mean the majority of Greeks in Constantinople were ‘rich’ as you stated? No, it means the Turks used a handful of Greeks to control their Greek population and made sure these individuals at Constantinople had a degree of economic autonomy and influence within the Orthodox church (the only Greek institution allowed to function). Now had the Turks not been so ‘stupid’ as you say to trust the Greeks or find that the world does not revolve around Mecca, they would have been aware that the culture and languages of Europe would have enlighten them more than looking Eastward.
Compare this to the present Palestinian situation. Do the Israelies not have Palestinians ‘citizens’ that they use and reward? There are a so called million ‘Arab’ Israelies that live within the state of Israel, that have it better than their brothers in Gaza. Some of these Palestinians are rich. Some work for the Israeli secret service, some have the ‘privilage’ to be in government and even in cabinet. So, why would Israel allow this? Because they are no different in executing their power over others as did the Ottoman Turks, Nazi Germany, the Roman Empire and even the Persian empire for that matter. Using your arguements, one can say the Israelis are similar to the Ottoman Turks in the way in which they allow a very small group of ‘minorities’ to flourish economically and socially. Now, a smart person like yourself should realize that this is propoganda. Just like the Fanariotes is Turkish propogand, so to. is it when you ignore what the majority of the minority experiences were/are on a daily basis. This concept of rewarding the few in comparison to the majority of the minority groups is a way of controlling a group within your boarders that does not share your religion, culture or langauge.
There are many other differences between the Greek and Palestinian experiences but my overall point is that all people have the right to self determination, and that no matter who in power supports a movement towards independence ( such as secret societies) we all have the right to live in a nation that is not controlled by another ethnic group of people. Thus once again, I state nationalism is a good thing when it ensures freedom for the majority.
Welcome back SoS! I owe you an answer since our last encounter several months back, when you turned the subject of another post, into a subject regarding the Turks and Ottoman empire, as sister. Iman mentioned.
Then, I didn’t have the time to answer you but I didn’t forget it either. It seems you’re still making the same mistake and I would like to give you the chance to discover it yourself, before I point it out for you.
So, let’s examine some of your statements. You write:
Yes indeed, nationalism is one of the worst things on earth and it’s anything but Islamic. I will explain why, in my answer to come. Now, what mistake can this statement of yours contain, that it is so obvious even you can’t see it?
My guess is the above statement is expressing your opinion and it would be very controversial if you do not admit your own opinions. Correct me if I am wrong. However, when you speak on behalf of all people, nationalism and freedom are two different concepts that not necessarily correlate with each other.
Who is that “you” and “we” you are referring to, especially when you mention the word collectively? Do you personally know anyone of us here? When you mention “we Greeks” what do you think we are, Turks? I prefer to avoid making assumptions, so want a straight answer from you, what do you think we are? What is your notion? I will elaborate on the subject of nationalism, in my answer to you.
Regarding your last post, I find it very interesting and somewhat objective. You seem to be well versed in some parts of history and I would agree with your analogical reasoning and your general conclusions.
However, the fact that you still believe nationalism is a good thing, indicates to me that you have not learned from history, as the majority of people never learn from it, other than reciting the parts that are relevant to them. Otherwise, history wouldn’t repeat itself, right?
So, please clarify for me those parts of your statements, because maybe I have the wrong idea about them. From what I can read so far, I see you are making the same mistake again and again that is the two sides of the same coin. Just one mistake all of us have fallen into, but some of us never escape from repeating it!
Gerasimos
P.S. When I have time, I will find the link to our last discussion, as it was some time ago, I think in November last year.
SoS
A mess of thoughts and unsupported historical evidence.
1.Have you ever read about the survival of a christian island in a Turkish muslim seljuk first ,ottoman later, sea which offered protection,at a price of course.
2.Do you know that during those 2-3 centuries,the roman emperors(i personaly refrain to use the 19th century invented term byzantine)adopted the celjuks’ Amir court garments at their imperial appearance?It survives as the traditional liturgical uniform of the orthodox patriarchs and bishops untill now.At the same time the priests adopted the mufti like hat in black colour minus the gotton strap.Patrokosmas o Aetolos the true inventor of the modern ?greek conccience and a fierceful antisemete wore the wole set-have a look at his icons.
3.At these late centuries the interaction between the imperial court and the shias went further:long hair for the priesthood and the monks contrary to pauline recommendations,exchange of garments(anteri-the under the cloak)same in shia imams,educated princesses married to khalifs and imams(the last hidden imam of the shia twelvers had a greek mother princess from the kandakousenous royal family)
4.Cultural and religious interactions:The belief for the stoned last emperor who waits with the half fried balukli fish comes straight from the belief of the hiden in occultation imam Hussain of the twelvers.
Between 11-14th century the issue of theoptia through the experience of the light in thabor mountain known as prophetic light or nur Muhammadiya in Islam appears in the work of symeon the new theologian and gregory palamas borrowed from the works of persian mystics and sufis.
5.Do you know that there are more narratives about the conquest of Istanbul other from I.Frantzis,like the pro-ottoman I.Doukas?
Aya sofya turned to a mosque-a place for prayers contrary to the vandalisms by the crusaders 200 yrs ago.There are a few churches surviving in the greek peninsula built before the15th century,survived the attacks of barbarian slavs,albanians,bulgars,normands and other fellow christians.
6.The ottomans rescued and protected the orthodox Rums,as ulm al kitab-people of the Book.I’m happy I can speak this great language and not a latinized euro-ninny versionof the greek language-in France only from the estimated 300spoken dialects only 2-3 survive.
7.Fanariotes opposed the insurgence of the joint Rum-Arvanites insurgency on 1821.They were attached to the Divan as highpost bureucrats,dragomans etc and afilliated to the brittish at that time.Sultan Selim the third in 17th century ordered them not to appeal to him with bribes in less than 6months time asking to swap patriarchs from rival families.For the greeks I advice to enjoy the book ksenoi perihgetes stin ellada 336-1453,1453-1821,themelio publ.athens,awarded by the athens academy.You will enjoy the promiscous and immoral levantine culture of the upper Rum class in Istanbul and Smyrna.Fanariotes were in charge of the Dovlet because of the administration vacuum (no sultan) during the 1821 insurgency.More to come for those who visit the thread,not for SoS ,in later posts.
I will try to clarify as best as I can Gerasimos. First I will start by apologizing to you or anyone who takes offense to the term ‘collectively’, or ‘you’ and ‘we’, you are correct ,I do not know anyone in this forum on a personal level nor do I wish to put words in anyones/everyones mouths. But, I have through discussion come to understand certain shared viewpoints in regards to what Muslims believe through our correspondence. Also to clarify the ‘you’ and ‘we’ reference for the most part is not one of ethnicity, but generally the view between what I see as the majority of Christian’s perspective and the majority of Muslim’s perspective.
Now in regards to nationalism, correct me if I am wrong but my understanding of the Muslim position through our correspondence is that nationalism runs contrary to Islamic principals.
So if this is correct I do not see how Muslims in this forum can support the national movement of the Palestinians to form their own state, which I happen to favour. If nationalism is truly against your principals, why not say they are better off under the Israelis? Now here is where I see the contradiction, whenever the Ottoman occupation comes up as a comparison, I have had people in this forum try to argue the Turks treated the Christians fairly, and in fact if the Greeks never revolted it seems we all would have lived in some kind of utopian fairyland state. So I hope you see there are many contradictions that I see from the Muslim Greek perspective.
Now to answer you Gerasimos in regards to your statement;
Correct me if I am wrong. However, when you speak on behalf of all people, nationalism and freedom are two different concepts that not necessarily correlate with each other.
In my opinion when looking at ‘freedom’ on a state level it does have a correlation with nationalism. Naturally there are many states that promote extreme forms of nationalism and their citizens are not free such as dictatorships, Communist states, Fascist states, Theocratic sates and so forth. So you can have nationalism with no personal individual citizen freedoms, but you cannot have personal individual freedoms if your state is not free and has no national interests of its own. How can you exercise political freedom and participation if your state is under the rule of another? Collectively as an ethnic group without a state you cannot be truly free. Thus in my opinion you cannot say nationalism is evil, simply because dictators use nationalism for their own personal goals rather than promoting the welfare and freedom of the citizens. It is national movements that allowed the Greek city states to fight off the Persians, it is the same movement that created the US as well as the French Revolution bringing with it the idea of civil liberties. So I conclude nationalism is not necessarily a bad thing only in extreme cases, and it is the idea of nationalism that will eventually bring liberty to the Palestinians.
I hope I have answered your questions Gerasimos
To answer you points bilal, simply because the Greeks adopted Turkish clothing traditions, does not imply Greeks had primarily good relations with the Ottomans.Yes there were Greeks who sided with the Ottomans and who were traitors. But how about the policies that had the Ottoman’s stealing Greek male children and raising them to protect the Sultan? Also the fact that Greeks revolted several times before 1821? An interesting omission on your part, wouldn’t you say? Or am I still stating, “a mess of thoughts and unsupported historical evidence?”
Truth is bila youl are viewing the historical record through a prism in which the Ottomans are anything but oppressors to the Greek people. Any nation or ethnic group who are under the authority of another cannot escape a shared history and shared interactions. This is true of both the Greeks and Turks during the 400 years of occupation and presently of Israelis occupation of Palestinian lands. But don’t confuse shared interactions as shared interests or shared beliefs. Naturally being under the control of an eastern looking empire, the relations that Greece enjoyed with the rest of Europe were severely severed. The Renaissance in Europe which ironically was inspired by Greeks scholars fleeing Constantinople to Italy was mostly absent in Greece. Instead we got Turkish overlords that shun Western art and culture, due primarily to religion.
Plus bilal you seem to miss out on all the things the Ottoman Turks borrowed from the Greeks and the West, like Byzantine Architecture for Mosques, Roman Baths, Greek/Byzantine Medicine, the Roman/Byzantine law code, the Moon Crescent and Star motiff (which was used in antiquity as the sympol of Byzantium). I suppose Muslims must be proud that Islamic architecture is heavily influenced by Greek Byzantine Orthodox designs. And please spare me the idea that only ‘barbarians and slavs,albanians,bulgars,normands and other fellow christians” destroyed churches and not the Ottomans.
Bilal if you wish to side with the Ottoman viewpoint on history that is your right, but don’t mistake Greek culture as it has evolved from antiquity with the culture of the Ottomans which had rejected much of our classical tradition and whose religion and culture represented a different world view that is based in the Middle East and not Europe.
PS: If I compared your analogy of people borrowing other people’s fashion trends,(‘the priests adopted the mufti like hat in black colour minus the gotton strap’) what do you say of Palestinains who wear American jeans today or watch American movies? Does that mean Palestinians have good realtions with the US or the West, and agree with the American fashion trender’s foreign policy?
SoS
You fell in your own trap.
I offered you the candy of the ottomans and you took it.
The thread is about stories from the israeli raid on the flottila bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza and the murder of muslim activists on board.
If we follow you we are going from argumentum in absurdum to argumentum in infinitum.Your goal is to annulate the objective of the thread deviating to who’s wrong who’s right betwenn greeks and turks generally speaking.
At the moment well done.Keep the money minus the bonus.
If you have something serious to add,go on stay in the context.
We are not meirakia(open your Liddel Scott .you don’t have any sense of g classic or modern greek i’m afraid)nor illitterate muslims but occassionaly we are in jeans not feeling americans.
I am wondering what words are fitting to this case???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li8objISiNY&feature=player_embedded
If you cannot comment this video say it honestly
It is sad to know that no matter what the subject we have here, if sos replies, he will talk again and again about the Turks. It is sad because sos represents the educated second generation Greeks of diaspora here
Iman was right again!
As I was reading the carefully written arguments of sos, I couldn’t help it and came to my mind the film “my big fat greek wedding” where the father of the bride was obsessed that Everything is Greek.
Please don’t make it cheap with heavy words.
Facts are facts no matter what people want to think. Facts are not negotiable.
And Gerasime I was always wondering who expelled the Greek Muslims to Turkey, like the Cretan Muslims??? They were not welcome in their own land and now you see why. “We” and “you” is a bitter joke anymore but was not the case in the past…Greece deserves better than this swamp of hatred.
bilal seems to me your are not capable of answering any of my questions while I have answered all of yours, but I guess the truth hurts when I point out the hypocrisy of your position. Nationalism for you can be justified by the Palestinian’s plight today, but not by your fellow Greeks who fought for liberty over the past 200 years, how ironic.
SoS
Start a new thread on ottoman-rum interaction or turkish- greek relationship and I wll be happy to argue with you until one of us is dead.
To defend my faith to Allah and His messenger is jihad
To force myself to be a real muslim is jihad also.
But now respect the blood shed on navi marmara..and the dead who were my brothers..Turkish muslims or Muslims turks ..as you preffer
Anna I agree with the video link you provided that the Palestinians are being miss treated and tormented by the Israelis for wanting their freedom to form their own state. My dilemma is how you appear to justify nationalism for Palestine cause and not for Greece?
As for bilal comments I think from his statements that he truly admires the “blood shed on navi marmara..and the dead who were my brothers” …. so I take it bilal from your words that fighting the Israelis for liberty is a war sanctioned by God Himself? You seem to justify defending your faith through the act of war? Is God nationalistic then when you state you are defending your faith to Him? Seems to be from your argument, the Hebrews themselves who believe God gave them the land of Israel are fighting a war sanction by God Himself? So who’s right, which side is God on? Even if Islam states nationalism is evil, Muslims can go around that by saying you are fighting to defend their faith in God against the none believers (not the reality that the Palestinians are fighting for nationalistic reasons). So how is this good for anyone if all we get is generation after generation of bloodshed and war? We have to use reason to find a solution, not religious rhetoric that leads to more fighting. Reason, the concept of individual and state freedom again that emerges from our classical Greek antiquity is the only solution for this conflict. Only when people on all sides accept a two state solution where freedom is guaranteed to all equally can there be stability. If one side only has freedom and not the other conflict will arise again.
Anna as for accusing me for being obsessed with everything that is Greek, no this is not the case, I am not interested in popular modern Greek culture, or music or other elements of my Greek ethnicity, rather I am obsessed with the concept of justice as first introduced by Plato and classical Greek ideals that help create and shape the Western world thought, art, architecture, philosophy and ancient literature. Still all these things are just the beginning of learning, but at least I strive to learn who we were as Greeks and why our global society is the way it is today. I do not reject the past of my ancestors because some school of thought or religion says everything associated with nationalism is evil. All I can tell you is educate yourself on the Greek past and you will truly be amazed.
The same old sad story…There are a lot of people like you that live the idea of an ideal ancient Greece but do not love the Greeks. It is obvious that you have no experience of the Greek reality and how we have evolved accumulating the ancient Greece and contemporary period. You have no idea for our poetry, for our struggles, for our music, for our scientific developents, our political status. You do not know me or us, you have no idea what we do for Greece, you have no idea what are our backgrounds. You think that the only matter to fight for Greece is to revive the corrupted Byzantin era where Greek philosophers were condemned and the emperors did not benefit Greece at all. I do not like oppressors but I know well that both Ottmans and Byzantins were oppressors for my country.
I study Pythagoras for years, his teachings brought me to Islam to your information.
I have told you in the past this and this is my last proposal to you. Why instead of accusing us of not doing enough for Greece, why don’t YOU do something for Greece instead of spending time accusing us?
Action is better that talking. Let us meet after a while and share with each other how we benfited Greece honestly.
This wind of superiority that you spread over us that I am illiterate, or Amir is a boy, or Bilal is always mistaken is pure arrogance. We can live with that, it is a sign of times where some people think that are superior than others. Enjoy.
SoS,
Your acronym means sos for greece and you are in charge to save us from not being greek enough to meet your concept about what a greek should be?
Usually I don’t come back for arguments put in my mouth as my own words.
Because you are ignorant about Islam,I just let you know that Jihad is the effort to bear witness about Islam and defend our cause when attacked.
And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you,but aggress not,God loves not the aggressors-Imam Ibn Taimia,12th cen.CE.
Jihad is continuous until the age of Judgement.It is based on three pillars,namely, intensification of Islam in ourselves and eradication of evil;extension of the word of God to all the corners of the world by wisdom and advice:Call thou to the way of thy lord with wisdom and good admonition;and military preparedness to repel aggression based on a spirit of total sacrifice.
Who was and still is the aggressor in Palestine?
Those who blew up the king david hotel in Al Quds(jerusalem in arabic) in 1947where brittons and others found a violent death;those who sank the uss Liberty in the 1967 war off the coast of israel where 27 us marines died;Baruch Goldstein the american jew who killed 64 palestinians in a mosque in Al Quds,so he trigered the first indifanda,those who killed Yidjak Rabin the nobel awarded isreli PM who signed the Oslo treaty with Y.Arafat etc,etc
How can be a two state solution when the west bank and gaza counts for the 22% of the Israeli territory,infiltrated now at its 46% by illegal israeli settlers.
You speak about blood,and you try to present Muslims as blood thirsty vampirs.Islam is bleeding now from Afghanistan to the subsaharan Africa.Islam is the enemy and they try to impose puppet regimes through just wars,invasions,reform and loss of state sovereignity.
You speak about nationalism,one of the byproducts of the european enlightment..Islam opposes nationalism as an enemy and adress the brotherhood-Ummah,Islam has nothing to share with the western concept for a state and dreams the establishment of a new Kilaphat for the Ummah.
Plato and the greek philosophy is a global heritage.
Judaism met Plato in Alexandria when Philo thoght about him to be equal to Moses,The Ummayads adopted him in Damascus the first muslim platonist was Al Kindi 9th cent,CE.
You speak about reason in Palestine where the evangelicals christian zionists from the US push to the direction of the day of Armagedon when jews expected to die or convert to christianity.
Their proteges have elaborated the culture of the third temple and plan to demolish the Al Aksha and the mount of the temple,to build the third one for their Messiah to come and reign.
And poor Plato good in writing but nule in politics,Tutor of the tyrann in syracusae and his hostage at the same time.All these for those who are eager to know.
Anna you have an interesting way of changing my words, you first accuse me of being like the father character in “my big fat greek wedding” obsessed that ‘Everything is Greek’ and when I replied I am not interested in that or popular modern Greek culture, or music or other all other elements of my Greek ethnicity but rather obsessed with the concept of justice as first introduced by Plato and classical Greek ideals that help create and shape the Western world through, art, architecture, philosophy and ancient literature you accuse me of the opposite, that I do not love the Greeks of today. Your conclusion is obviously wrong, but I do give you high marks in the art of sophistry; to clarify I am not who you make me out to be.
bilal I agree the Palestinians are not the aggressors for the most part, but we need to have peace and justice in the region or come closer to some form of it. You mention: How can be a two state solution when the west bank and gaza counts for the 22% of the Israeli territory,infiltrated now at its 46% by illegal israeli settlers. Well the answer is not an easy one. Obviously some people will have to be resettled, water and other resources have to be equally available to all. There is an option that whole region can become a secular state with all citizens treated equally, but religious intolerance makes that reality unattainable in my opinion. For comparison’s sake, in Cyprus when the island was split in 1974, the Turkish Cypriot population consisted just 18% of the population but yet they captured 36% of the land with the aid of Turkey, as a result 28% of Greek Cypriots were turned into refugees. To date there are 110,000 illegal settlers in Northern Cyprus and 43,000 Turkish soldiers stationed permanently on the island. Is this tragic? Yes, but the irony is there is relative peace on the island even if there is no justice for those forced to re-settle. Would it be nice to reunify the island? Yes, but primarily due to religious intolerance that makes it impossible. Now I am sure you must see that violence in the middle east is on the blood of everyones hand and not just one groups. A two state solution may not always be best, but it seems to be better to me than having one religious minority always under the control of the other. I still think the two state solution can work for the Palestinians and Israelis with Jerusalem being under the jurisdiction of an international body that sees it non-aligned to any particular ethnic or religious group.
SoS,
Post number one:Plato
A letter for reconciliation
I accept your benevolence to improve the human existence and life through Plato.
On Plato’s Politeia many philosophers like Bacon(Utopia),Cmpanella(Civitas Dei)Fourier(Falanstere)reflected about ideal societies.
Alas ,reality is so rude.But none can say that we must stop rethinking about what is reality.
Cyprus
Dear SoS,
The game is over now for Cyprus.Neither greek nor turkish cypriots are interested any more in a reunified Cyprus.Both communities prosper and they are not willing to go backwards to the era of coups,juntas,masacres ,retaliation to masacres and leftist politics at the backyard of Israel.Between international law, real facts,and de facto realities the sense of right some times looks like wishful thinking.
Palestine and the two state solution
The Gaza blockade the flottila raid,Israeli settlers in the occupied west bank and East Jerusalem matter for the Ummah and Israeli state as well.As long as Israel acts like a rogue state there is no hope for a two state solution.
As Professor Avi Shlaim an Israeli distinguished professor of international relations at Oxford,concluded:
A review of Israel’s record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with “an utterly unscrupoulous set of leaders”.A rogue state habitually violates international law,possesses weapons of mass destruction and practices terrorism_the use of violence against civilians for political purposes.Israel fulfils all of these three criteria:the cap fits and it must wear it.Israel’s real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination.
Quoted from J.Esposito”The future of Islam”
Given that the under 25s in Muslim countries are between 45-65%,how can someone protect them from the preachers of the extreme political Islam?
On the other hand the issue of gaza gives a chance to the world Jewish diaspora to stand opposite their crooked leadership and the paranoia of a big part of the Israeli society and media.Browse the Haaretz journal website please.Its a long way ahead for peace and a viable solution
The End
bilal you bring you bring up some interesting points. We both both agree that Plato’s ideals are a positive contribution for all of us and we should all strive to the search for justice. Now as I have mentioned before I agree that the Palestinians deserve justice and a state that they can call home, which I believe you agree with as well. I believe this for nationalist reasons your arguments do not include the ‘nationalistic’ point of view. We are not that far apart in our view for wanting justice, however I wonder if my desire for it is more utopian than yours. You mention how presently Cyprus cannot be unified, how “Both communities prosper and they are not willing to go backwards to the era of coups, juntas,massacres,retaliation to massacres and leftist politics at the backyard of Israel. Between international law, real facts,and de facto realities the sense of right some times looks like wishful thinking.” So do I take it from that statement that we should abandon the concept of justice in Cyprus because these two religious groups cannot live united in peace? Forget past wrongs lost land and move on. BTW I disagree that both sides are prospering today, the only positive is that since 1974 there has been less violence on the island between Greeks and Turks. If this is your rational, the separation of Cyprus is now final (and I don’t know if it is) does that mean we must also give up on the Palestinians because peaceful coexistence is not possible? Have not the Palestinians been without a homeland since 1967, do we give up on them the way you seem to have given up on Cyprus since 1974?
I don’t pretend to know the answer, other than after a separation period perhaps both sides have to realize the world is too small to pretend the other does not exist and we have to all find ways collectively that can benefit everyone rather than dive into another generation cycle of violence. Whether the Palestine or the Cyprus issue, we have to decide what type of justice do we want, one that separates people or one that unites people while maintaing individual and community religious rights.
As a Palestinian Christian I deplore the fate of Arab Christians
iSlam does not tolerate any other religion we have left the M. East
and now we find that mOslims are making use of the Free Democratic
West … Let us not forget how the people of Gaza are suffering also from
the sHaria…
PALESTINE IS CHRISTIAN
Palestine is not Christian, Palestine is part of the planet we call Earth, and planet Earth is submitted to the will of Allah, thus, Muslim. Considering this is true, Palestine, as every other part of this planet, is Muslim as well. There you have your argument
Ghasar
You mean that as a Palestinian christian you were persecuted in occupied Palestine by the Muslims so you were forced to leave Palestine for somewhere else?May you make it clear?
As for SArabia,quite a lot of weird things happen there.Your bible was confiscated but the bibles of the pastors and those of the tens of thousands american
mercenaries stationed there, not.May you give us an explanation?
What kind of a christian are you?
There are several kinds of them.
Dear SoS
I can see any similarity between Palestine and Palestine,except of being parts of the British Empire in the past.Greek Cyprus today is one of the big foreign investors in Russia(money laundry land for the russian oligarch),the las vegas of Israel,and a member of EU.Are you sure that they really want to have partners in the feast?
As for Palestine I reply with a poem,quoted from “Punishment of Gaza”by Gideon Levy,the famous liberal Israeli reporter of Haaretz:
…If the roof not beams,destroy the foundations….Attack Lebanon and also Gaza with plows and with salt,destroy them so no inhabitant remains.Transform them into barren desert,piles of rubble…kill them,spill their blood,frighten the living…
The poet”s name Ilan Schneinfeld
SoS
I apologize for delaying once again my answer to you. I was caught in the middle of moving to a new apartment, vacations and the lack of internet connection up to recently. Anyway, better late than never!
If I were to comment on the fallacy of your arguments, I would end up writing a book which I would name “The Path to Confusion”. Instead, I will write a few words so that you may reflect upon to recognize the mistakes in your arguments.
At first I would recommend, since you are interested in studying our ancient Greek tradition, you should study logic before you study anything else. That will hopefully enable you to achieve a certain coherence in your thoughts and a coherent expression of these thoughts, in words.
You touch 2 very interesting though abstract concepts of justice and freedom. You may have studied them but I am not convinced you have the slightest clue about them, quite the contrary I would say. Because if you consider fair and just to take the best elements of an era (ancient Greek civilization) and compare it to the worst elements of another era (Ottoman occupation of Greece), then I’d say you are biased and as far from justice one can be! And every time you take a specific attribute and generalize it to represent a group of people or vice versa, you will be wrong by default…any attribute and any group.
If you were just you would be sincere in examining the best and the worst of both civilizations, the Greek and the Islamic. Then you would see that the freedom of speech and the recognition of human rights are not exclusive to democracy for which you pride yourself as a Greek. Read about the Golden Age of Islamic civilization and not only the Golden Age of Greek civilization. And when you speak about democracy which democracy do you mean? The one where only the nobles are allowed to vote, while women sit at home and the slaves work in the fields? Is it that you are calling civilization? That is far from human rights my friend…
Not to mention democracy existed only in Athens of all Greece where Kingdoms under different types of monarchy where fighting each other. Where this greater part of Greece also barbarians or in other words uncivilized?
I am proud for the good my ancestors did, but I find no good in that original form of democracy as it took place.
And what about freedom? Is it the right to self-determination alone or is it within the limits of my freedom that is not transgressing the freedom of people around me? I can tell you, the (so called) Israelis did that exact same thing! They exercised their right to self determination, by depriving the Palestinians of their territory, their homes and their freedom. If that is the justice and freedom you adhere to, then try to snap out from this Utopian mode and into reality!
Try also to snap out from the mode of making assumptions and drawing conclusions without the prerequisite knowledge or simply by assuming that the rest of the people around you share the same view with you.
See, for you maybe “nation” and “nationalism” is the same thing but in Islam there are two very different concepts. It is very normal to identify ourselves by what we have in common, a common identity. However, regardless of our individual identity, we all have the inherent ability to recognize oppression and injustice. Nationalism is when justice is replaced by interests,”our” interests as a way of justifying our own actions and words. Have you ever done military service? Because if you have, you will be aware of the oath of being blindly obedient to your superiors and to protect your country to the last drop of your blood! Now, is it “my country right or wrong”? What if my country is doing something wrong, should I still be obedient and die defending something wrong? Well, if that’s the case…count me out! Nationalism is one among countless ways to label people as a way of judging and controlling them collectively.
That is ignorant by default and people who do that are as ignorant as one can be! So, you have a great problem with Turks and what they did 2-3-4-5-600 years ago. Do you think all Turks in all those 600 years where so blood-thirsty and evil? Do you think Turkish people today should be held accountable for what they ancestors did? Have you ever spoken to a Turkish person in your life? If yes, how many 1, 2, 10, 100? Hmmm…what are the odds of judging 80 million people out of a sample of 100? Even in statistics the sample is too small to draw conclusions, but you seem to be convinced beyond any doubt!
Even if you haven’t met a single Turk you have read so many things that you may even call yourself educated! It doesn’t matter if it is only the things someone wants you to know, either way you don’t want to know/see the bad things about “us, i.e the Greeks”!
And if a Canadian (if you still live in Canada) comes to you and says “YOU Greeks are thieves and liars!! You have been taking money all these years, put it in your pockets, cooking numbers and lying about it”!
Of course at that point you are a Canadian and not a Greek…you are from the good Greeks not the bad ones! You said it yourself, you take distance from the contemporary history of Greece and study only the “Glorious” times! I wonder why, isn’t the last 200 years of Greek history, its part? Or is it your well established practice to examine only parts of history…the good ones! Maybe that’s why you will never learn from history. If you learned from it, you would know that wars (financial or physical) are decided and benefit the few but they are fought by the many…those who hold any label imposed by the few. You call it Nationalism, I call it IGNORANCE. And if you still justify it you’d better think twice and wake up!
I suggest you snap out from your illusion and deal with your hating of Turks or others, because it will destroy you at the end.
And you may find all the excuses of the world, in order to justify and express that hate, but at the end of the day, this article is written for those few who stood up against an ongoing injustice everyone is talking about and no one does a thing! These people put their lives at risk and signed a paper that they might never return!! So, at best you can take a lesson instead of finding excuses…it is very easy to sit in safety and blame everyone else and even easier to brag and boast for the works (selectively) of your ancestors
That reminds me of a saying of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) “the one who brag and boast for what his ancestors did, is like the one who claims to be satiated by someone else’s meal”. Guess what…it will never happen!
People died there just a few weeks ago and your great problem is what happened several hundred years ago…Well, if that’s the best you can do, then at least show some respect and bring up your problems in an appropriate way and place!
Gerasimos
Gerasimos
I read your post several times to try and understand what you are trying to convey but I have to say I am at a lost. However I will answer some of your arguments.
You state:
“And when you speak about democracy which democracy do you mean? The one where only the nobles are allowed to vote, while women sit at home and the slaves work in the fields? Is it that you are calling civilization? That is far from human rights my friend…”
The democracy of Athens, the first democracy in recorded history, was far from perfect, however it did establish a great number of positive attributes. First you are wrong, it was not ‘nobles’ that were only allowed to vote, but all adult male citizens of Athens, so long as they were not slaves. It was a direct democracy, not a representative democracy, meaning every citizen had the right to vote for any or all laws past by the government. This is very different from your local member of parliament making voting decisions by him/herself in parliament. Yes women were excluded from voting, but remember we are speaking of something that took place way before any other European and/or Islamic state was formed. So all civilization since then has a blueprint from the Athenians to form their version of a democracy. BTW You also forgot to mention the idea of a constitution that was first formed in ancient Greece allowing citizens of knowing their rights under the law.
As far as demonizing the Turks as you accuse me of doing this is not true. I am not blaming the Turks for past atrocities, but neither am I going to be ignorant of my people’s past history. And when I do is bring up historical facts, that seems to upset you so, but if something was unjust 100’s or even 1000s of years ago it does not make it just today. If tomorrow the Palestinians were to be free would they forget the atrocities done by others to their people today? I think not.
Also I do not see how you can argue against ‘nationalism’ and still support the idea of the Palestinians having their own land. Am I missing something? Do you not believe the Palestinians should have their own homeland? Do you not see the irony of your position, nationalism is bad, but yet the Palestinians should have their own land, or would you rather eliminate all international boundaries? How is it Muslim states have international boundaries if their holly book is so against the concept of nationalism? So call me ignorant if you want, but I see much hypocrisy out there.
SoS:
“Also I do not see how you can argue against ‘nationalism’ and still support the idea of the Palestinians having their own land. Am I missing something? Do you not believe the Palestinians should have their own homeland? Do you not see the irony of your position, nationalism is bad, but yet the Palestinians should have their own land, or would you rather eliminate all international boundaries? How is it Muslim states have international boundaries if their holly book is so against the concept of nationalism? So call me ignorant if you want, but I see much hypocrisy out there.”
Answer: As long as there is no Islamic state (one that encompasses all Muslim nationalities/nations), and as long as the “West” has the upper hand, we can only talk in terms of Western international boundaries. Don’t forget that it wasn’t the Muslims themselves per se who chose to divide themselves into more than one nations, rather it was the Brits who propagated the idea of nationalism to these people (also to the Greeks, to be honest). With other words, if it was in our hands, no, there would be no Palestinian land, rather, there would be Muslim land (darul Islam=the land of Islam) wherever the majority of population was Muslim. But, obviously it’s not in our hands, so in terms of freedom, we can only hope for a two state solution, so that the one does not oppress the other. I hope I filled that missing part for you
By the way, I don’t think it’s that hard to understand what I just said, even without me having to say it.